PVP Rank and PVP Experience Change

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Originally Posted by Korihu

But they removed it for some reason, probably from people who don't want to PvP bawling that they want the glamglams.

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That was the reason and that's why i said there would be a shitstorm if SE did that again. Its kinda sad but it was the wish of majority so SE delivered, i never really cared that they removed rank req from gear because AP was the real reason to have maxed rank(well at least R48 as the last 2 rank AP's were unusable).

Meaby give old rank Reward mount, armor, Weapon, accessories (no trophy) to the Wove Den, but you need to have certain rank. This just a idea..... ;-;

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Originally Posted by Korihu

I believe that PvP glamour used to be locked behind PvP rank.

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It originally wasn't even mere glamour.

Originally, item levels weren't synced and the morale stat boosted the item's level and stats. PvP items with morale in turn were locked behind Rank. The point of that was to give PvP a sort of progression system on its own - you do more PvP, you get higher rank and thus you get stronger via the gear locked behind that rank. The result was people wintrading en masse to easily farm PvP experience and wolf marks (and bots).
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-influenced-FL

They then undermined morale by introducing an item level sync and with that, busted the PvP progression system. At that point, locking the gear behind rank was pointless, because the whole point of locking it in the first place was to facilitate the progression, which went out the window. So with people requesting access, there was no point not allowing it anymore, especially since the grind was, uh... someone mathed out 130 play hours with wintrading at the time, a multitude of that if done normally.

If you want some fun, go to the last page of this forum and scroll forward through the pages. It's educational.

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Originally Posted by LastFireAce

Meaby give old rank Reward mount, armor, Weapon, accessories (no trophy) to the Wove Den, but you need to have certain rank. This just a idea..... ;-;

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dont ever mention something like this unless you want to feel the wrath of the top 100 players XD

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Originally Posted by Mirch

dont ever mention something like this unless you want to feel the wrath of the top 100 players XD

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Lol idc about there wrath, I'm just telling my opinion it be awsome if we could get mouth or Armor after set of time for thos who scored 101->. They can keep trophy tho. Trophy Should be only for thos who won.
Been a while since season 1 reward.

The mounts of S3 and 4, and the armor of this season and next ARE the "trophy" so to speak.

Please no, I don't my time spent queuing for an hour or more per match just to win/lose or queue against win trader pre SB.
Season 4 = 3 months long queue, especially as a range DPS, almost all content is dead and subscription fees isn't free during that time.

Could you imagine? spending hours and hours half AFK ingame but can't do anything else other than casual things such as crafting in which there isnt anything left to craft pre-stormblood

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Originally Posted by LastFireAce

snip.

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The reason this idea is not that great, isn't just because "oh no my special thing"

It's because it would effectively kill the whole point of the system they setup in the first place.

Currently : Top 100 Get exclusive gear, Number 1 Exclusive Furnishing, There's also exclusive titles.

Top 10, Timed Exclusive Weapon(1 Season)

Cost 10 Tickets.

If each item aside from the trophy was changed to be like the weapon, There would really be no reason to hit Top 100 ever. Unless you're impatient.

You might as well just call Tickets Tomestones, Seasons patch cycles, and the rewards Tomestone items. Cause that's all they'd be unless they made the cost extreme, which would be kind of lame too.

If you can just get the reward anyway what exactly is the incentive? Especially with how stressful ranking can be.

The rewards are hardly enough to get people to PVP as it is and all rewarding participation would do is cause people to quit after doing the minimum amount of work.

If I went to class and the teacher said, Okay as long as you have perfect attendance and some grades I'll give you an A. Aside from personal reasons what would be the point in doing her 60 page essay on theoretical physics if I already get an A from perfect attendance and some homework?

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Aside from personal reasons what would be the point in doing her 60 page essay on theoretical physics if I already get an A from perfect attendance and some homework?

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Not being kicked out of work later because you were applying for a job you had good grades, but no qualifications for.

The point of the grades in school isn't to "reward" you for learning, the point is to reflect how well you know the matter at hand to decide whether you are qualified for higher learning/jobs or whether that would exceed your skills. The proper analogy would be ranking people up in spite of a bad winrate, which this game already does due to the difference between rating gained and rating lost in lower rankings.

Further, since you're constantly asking for incentives: What's the incentive to queue up for the ~400k people that are guaranteed to not get a reward because only 600 get it max? First an accessory you don't even know how it'll look, now a weapon too. Of course that's "hardly enough to get people to PvP as it is", especially the first one is pretty "meh". 99,9% of the active 70s playerbase are excluded from the main reward by design, more if I account for everyone able to participate at all. With such miniscule odds to win, you could make it a lottery where you just fill in a few numbers and many people still wouldn't bother, much less if you need to play hundreds of painstaking games in a mode you don't like in the first place.

The good thing is that this in turn increases the odds to win for the people that "do" participate. If only 1% bothers to try, it's basically a top 15% reward among those participating - and that's still stricter than how LoL handles its skin reward and people still try to shoot all the way up to challenger regardless. It completely and utterly fails as incentive for people to queue up, because most people realize how unrealistic it is to achieve and don't bother trying in the first place as a result.
Where it ironically IS successful at is incentivizing people to stop playing once they qualify for it. Or, once decay gets introduced, to only do the minimum amount of work to hold it.

Put short, you cannot kill the point of an already pointless system. The point of ranking and ranked, if there ever is one, is to accurately rank people's skill to ensure good matches between equally skilled players where neither side stomps or gets stomped, which is a reward in itself. That's the point and it fails at that. The top 100 rewards fail to get any noteworthy amount of people to participate and thus fail as an incentive, too. And the rewards that are realistically achievable for a greater amount of players are lackluster and therefore achieve meh results at best.

It's just a failure all around.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Not being kicked out of work later because you were applying for a job you had good grades, but no qualifications for.

The point of the grades in school isn't to "reward" you for learning, the point is to reflect how well you know the matter at hand to decide whether you are qualified for higher learning/jobs or whether that would exceed your skills. The proper analogy would be ranking people up in spite of a bad winrate, which this game already does due to the difference between rating gained and rating lost in lower rankings.

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Grades in school are actually pointless. Most people are just happy to pass in general,Passing the class is the reward, Grades are the things people meet to hit that reward. A person could be extremely knowledgeable on a subject and fail every test and thus make bad grades, Or another could have a mishap during the school year and be unable to complete homework and get bad grades despite actually knowing their subject. Also it's entirely possible to learn what you need for your job without actually ever needing school. (many successful people in their fields actually dropped out or never completed school)

Any further on this particular point and I'd get off topic. But the point I was getting at there was simply, "If everyone gets the same thing regardless of how hard they try, what is the point in trying hard at all?"

Participation rewards to me, being an older gamer, are something I don't really believe in. Especially if they're the exact same as the main reward. Yeah sure you can give people something for participating if you want, but you don't give the 10 best players the same thing as the 400k who "made a small effort" twice.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Further, since you're constantly asking for incentives: What's the incentive to queue up for the ~400k people that are guaranteed to not get a reward because only 600 get it max? First an accessory you don't even know how it'll look, now a weapon too. Of course that's "hardly enough to get people to PvP as it is", especially the first one is pretty "meh". 99,9% of the active 70s playerbase are excluded from the main reward by design, more if I account for everyone able to participate at all. With such miniscule odds to win, you could make it a lottery where you just fill in a few numbers and many people still wouldn't bother, much less if you need to play hundreds of painstaking games in a mode you don't like in the first place.

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I have never once asked for more incentives from Ranked Feast 4v4(or probably any pvp mode, I prefer PvP over PvE any day). I enjoy playing to better myself, they constantly downgrade the system to make it so that I have to try less. To me personally, a unique armor set is an amazing reward. But there's an obvious reason as to why people do not pvp, or at least I thought it was obvious. Most players in FFXIV, do not like pvp, they talk trash about pvp, hate when pvp is the only thing updated, and consider it a waste of resources.
There will never be enough incentive to get a large turnout from this games PvP, Especially when most games trying to be "E-sport" offer actual money at live events and encourage you to try to be able to make it to those events. Even unpopular fighting games have companies that will give a bonus to the prize pot. A digital item by comparison doesn't compete as well.(my opinion.)

People do not like PvP here very much, the system was changed, and participation rewards were added in an attempt to change that, it didn't work. You can't really count the entire 70's playerbase if the majority of that playerbase already hates the system. When pvp was even announced to be worked on in beta it was met with resistance, "keep it out of FF" was a very popular response and continued to be even after it was added back in ARR.

So yes no incentive will be enough for those people, and adding participation rewards only causes those people to do the minimum. We aren't talking about the dedicated pvp player base with comments like that, but there really aren't many of us to begin with. Especially on NA/EU servers.

If I don't raid to the end, I don't get a raid weapon until that weapon no longer matters. Since gear no longer matters in PvP, all you really have is glamor anyway, I don't really see why people who don't care about the mode should be allowed to participate a couple of times and get the same reward as those who try to keep themselves on the board (legitimately) all the way to the end.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

The good thing is that this in turn increases the odds to win for the people that "do" participate. If only 1% bothers to try, it's basically a top 15% reward among those participating - and that's still stricter than how LoL handles its skin reward and people still try to shoot all the way up to challenger regardless. It completely and utterly fails as incentive for people to queue up, because most people realize how unrealistic it is to achieve and don't bother trying in the first place as a result.
Where it ironically IS successful at is incentivizing people to stop playing once they qualify for it. Or, once decay gets introduced, to only do the minimum amount of work to hold it.

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Shooting to challenger has more benefits, League hands out money to teams who win tournaments, League actually has tournaments where thousands watch live and millions watch online. Comparing the two is pointless. You have far more to gain in league, where a skin works fine as is. In FF the skin is all you're really getting. The two, in my eyes can not be compared at all. League is also purely PvP, has balance highlights, telling you why each thing is balanced, among other things. League also has a team mode as well as a solo mode, and to go further in depth a by far ahead Ranking system, matchmaking system, far far more playstyle options with unique playstyles (while remaining mostly balanced) and a requirement before entering Ranked , as well as the ability to fight Ai characters for newer players to practice on. League even places you into a different starting tier dependent on your placement matches.

As for the "too unrealistic" thing. This is the end all be all circle. FF community dislikes pvp, FF community does the bare minimum in general in most things already. They see top 100 and go " that's impossible I can't do it" because less people queue for that reason it's easier to sit on rankings, the lack of competitive spirit for the community breeds a lack of need to compete for the rewards. it's a vicious circle that will always continue because it is a community problem (also not 100% present in the JP community) and not a system problem. The way this problem has been handled wasn't the best. Many PvP games (pretty much all pvp games) have far more toxic players and trash talk than FF had, yet FF is the only game I've ever played or heard of with a banned chat in competitive pvp.

Mind you we still have no word whether the decay will affect Solo queue ranked or how the team ranked system will play out. at least as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Put short, you cannot kill the point of an already pointless system. The point of ranking and ranked, if there ever is one, is to accurately rank people's skill to ensure good matches between equally skilled players where neither side stomps or gets stomped, which is a reward in itself. That's the point and it fails at that. The top 100 rewards fail to get any noteworthy amount of people to participate and thus fail as an incentive, too. And the rewards that are realistically achievable for a greater amount of players are lackluster and therefore achieve meh results at best.

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I honestly would say that's very subjective. For all those win-traders and players who don't play because "it's impossible to get the reward" clearly the point of the system is the reward. Leader boards such as this hardly ever "accurately rank people's skill". It's always a game of who can play the most or game the system the most. However usually gaming the system is met with... well more resistance than in FF.

I definitely agree the system fails all around. But I disagree that you can't kill it further.

I believe more realistic things have been suggested before. Top 100 per server instead of per data center, making it role/job leader boards instead.

You still should have to actually work for your reward. I got gold in 2 or 3 days this season. If they made say S1 armor 10 collars, That's 6 days of work (with a 33.33% win rate needed at that) to acquire. Meanwhile in S1 getting on the board and staying there was definitely no easy feast, even if you could rank sit once you hit high enough.

While yes you can have a negative win rate hitting Diamond, you can not maintain a negative win rate and stay on the board after Diamond. Which mind you the entire board is at least 1 or 2 positive matches into Diamond without a loss + winning 3/5 matches in qualifiers.

Like I said earlier in my post I'm not a big fan of participation rewards in general. But if you're going to give them, they have be just that, a participation reward. Giving out the #1, 1-10, 1-100 rewards for two seasons of participation isn't a participation reward. It really does take away from an already terribly broken system .

The smart idea would be to have a reward rotation, giving more players a chance to get the reward for those who are mainly playing for the reward. I originally thought that's what they were going to do. Making the seasons shorter with a change like that would also help a lot.

We even had a huge lack of interest in pre-season, yet many players showed up during the main season. I'm pretty sure the rewards had more to do with that than bettering ones own play. Otherwise pre-season would have been a good time to get an advantage with a brand new pvp system. This was not the case, pre-season was dead.

I don't 100% disagree with the things you said, but my opinion on the matter definitely differs quite a bit.

As a final note, whether a reward is "meh" or not is subjective and up to the person. Like how some think wings are absolutely tacky and never want to see them in FF whereas others would love to have wings in FF.

To me that situation describes pvp as a whole pretty well and is likely the real heart of the issue. Some players never wanted to see PvP in this game in the first place, actually a lot of players. However some players love PvP and just wish the system made more sense.

But if you take what little there is left to the system in terms of reward and just give it out? It just kind of kills what little there was left to it.

Just because something is terrible doesn't mean people don't find a silver lining to keep them going, but if you take that out then you're right. There's nothing left.