Zenos redemption arc will make Stormblood great again.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's more along the lines of Zenos believing that anyone who doesn't enjoy violence like he does is less than human. This is why the Warrior of Light, and them alone, is the only person he shows real emotion toward - friendliness, in his own twisted idiom. He believes you share his love of violence and thus are on the same level as him (re: human).

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I don't know if violence is how I would phrase it. Zenos was definitely a violent man, but his ennui had more to do with the lack of a worthy opponent than people not agreeing with him. I don't think it even crossed his mind what those around him were thinking, and why would it? He was the strongest person in his circle, and he was surrounded by people who curried his favor. Combine that with his violent nature means he's going to do what he wants without caring at all about anyone around him. Then we come along, the first person to stand against him multiple times, each time become stronger and stronger. His acknowledgement of us is because we're very much like him.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

We heard through Aulus that it was Zenos that allowed the resonance research to continue even after it was canned, was it a side effect of going too far with the echo?

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My money's on this. Something funky happening with the experiments would explain Varis' nonchalant reaction to his death. The man who died was no longer his son but something that had been wearing his face and speaking with his voice.

Zenos may be a psychopath, but I don't think he was "stupid". Or he'd be soft-interned in some padded cell at the capital. He is likely smarter than Alphinaud and Alisaie, to be able to survive and thrive in a cutthroat environment like the Garlean military. We know he received the best tutors and trainers possible when he was young, which is part of why he is so powerful with weapons as well. It takes intelligence to be excellent. And even though some people are actually crazy, there is always some truth, some uncanny wisdom in what they say, from their .. "unique" perspectives.

If Zenos wanted to, he could most likely have become emperor too, eventually, waiting out his father's death, or even taking matters into his own hands sooner if he was capable. The attitude his father held to him could also be interpreted as "I really wished he wasn't my son but now that he is I probably wouldn't say something like that for ... um, reasons". It means Zenos was still under partial control, or the emperor would've taken actions into his own hands if it meant Zenos was going to do something crazy like defect or start an indiscriminate slaughter fest every other weekend. It could also be interpreted the other way around, Zenos realizes he is the emperor's son, and loves his father. This is what keeps in in partial check and unconditional loyalty to the Garleans, despite everything else.

Perhaps Zenos was so intelligent he saw through the farce which was the Garlean ideal and became disillusioned, even psychotic from the disappointment. And he became so cynical, that just from seeing the WoL stand before him, his ideal counterpart and what he could have been had he a slightly different fate, now physically in his presence, just rubbed it in for him and he completely lost all hope and dreams of eventually making it out. E.g. becoming emperor and finally "doing some good". Even the most excellent and smartest of people can become disillusioned, not to mention a young man like Zenos. Thus he really lost his marbles near the end, making him act like crazy, and culminating in his eventual suicide via primal. He could have made it much longer and harder for us, and everyone else including the Garleans as revenge, if he wanted to, but he didn't, which means he didn't truly treat us like an enemy, just wanted to put on a "show" for us, to go out in a spectacular way for himself too, and end the charade of dealing with all those concerns listed above, as he couldn't take it anymore.

If he was truly that sick, he would have become jealous with hate at our favor, and wanting to torment us, picked off our allies methodologically, one by one, just to hurt us. But he didn't, in fact he quite did the opposite; he only killed those he was at war with already, the resistance. People he considers not even people for simply being inferior (same for some Garleans on his own side). But us he treated with respect, despite twisted respect. So I can imagine if he could be redeemed, he would likely have become a great person, treating everyone with that kind of heartfelt "respect". But no, bad end for him. (And bad end for me, I paused subscription because SB was so disappointing.)

Sounds like a classic depression story to me.

We will never know why some people do act crazy, without being in their shoes. For us, they are absolutely unreasonably crazy, but for them, in their plight, even the most unnatural of options start seeming "normal" for them, especially if they realized they would be rubbed in in the end no matter what. Think the Facist generals in WW2, they wanted to fight till the end despite losing the war and losing support. Why? Possibly because they were not actually stupid, and they realized they could either die in battle, or die from being hanged for war crimes after they surrender. Or just hanged anyways out of spite. And because this defeat was obviously due to the fault of their subordinates, and the inability of other people, whom they now don't consider people anymore, in their sick mindstate, they have no pity in getting them all killed, in fact thinking that getting them all killed in battle would have been an "honour" and "mercy" to them. Of course there were some good people, but there were also worse. And Zenos was hardly the worse of them all.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

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This is an interesting take on Zenos, though if I may differ:

I agree that he is aware of the Empire's reasoning for its crusade against the eikons being a sham, either because he's too smart or too crazy to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Zenos yae Galvus

All eikons must be exterminated, without exception. Such was the imperial mandate issued by my great-grandfather after he saw firsthand the destruction wrought by one such being. They are a blight upon this star, he felt, and so he began his great and just crusade. Pah! Twas not justice which spurred his campaign but fear! Fear of the eikons, fear of their power. Cowardice made them march forth to battle. Pathetic!

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He knows the Imperial cause is not just, but simply a means of self-preservation and/or a way to get obstacles to its conquest out of the way.

To spell out what I'm trying to hint at, Zenos takes the Empire's "might makes right" ideal to its logical extreme. He's taught from a young age that the path to success is becoming the most powerful, so he does just that and becomes one of if not the finest warrior the Empire has ever produced, and seeks further power through bio-augmentation (and later Resonance). Tying this in with his seemingly inherent sociopathy, this would produce the monster he was - someone who cares nothing for others but as tools to use as he sees fit or measuring sticks for his own power, and should they displease him they can be disposed of as he wishes. Since "might makes right" even though he's a psycho Zenos was given a great deal of military power (Varis only recently became Emperor, and I believe Zenos was high legatus of the XIIth before that happened) despite clearly being unsuited for the authority such a position entails.

In short, Zenos may or may not have been a sociopath by nature, but it's the Imperial system that placed him into a position he had no business being in and indulged his monstrosity.

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Perhaps Zenos was so intelligent he saw through the farce which was the Garlean ideal and became disillusioned,

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He knows the Imperial cause is not just, but simply a means of self-preservation and/or a way to get obstacles to its conquest out of the way.

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He doesn't care.

He literally doesn't care about anything to do with the Garlean Empire, his father's crusade, the primals/eikons. Anything.

Zenos values strength and skill. When we face him in Doma, he tells us flat out that he lives only for time in between the seconds of combat. His ennui at life is because in his position, his upbringing - the training and the experimentation - have rendered him without equal. Until we meet him, no one can give the rush he's seeking, and he indulges in his sadist and violent nature by brutalizing everything around him.

His comments about his father are revealing of that nature. Such a man would not fear the eikons. He would seek to fight them in battle, not hide behind his Empire. I'm sure had the chance, he would fight a primal head on. The reason he didn't do that with a certain primal is because he more or less realized that we have no control over our own power and the only time we're truly at the top of our game is when we're doing what we do best - fighting primals. He wanted to experience the "legendary Warrior of Light" in all our glory.

You're trying to redeem him, but the reality he is a very brutal character, and that's why he sees us as kindred spirit. Lyse said it best, we do what needs to be done. We don't have much time for politics or intrigue, we're very pure in the sense that we are a pure warrior. We live for combat and our nature is revealed when we're doing what Hydaelyn tasked us to do. There's no need to redeem or excuse him, that would make no sense, he lived and died on his own terms. He was a monster who indulged in it, but it was not a personal thing for him.

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Originally Posted by Delily

We don't have much time for politics or intrigue, we're very pure in the sense that we are a pure warrior. We live for combat and our nature is revealed when we're doing what Hydaelyn tasked us to do. There's no need to redeem or excuse him, that would make no sense, he lived and died on his own terms. He was a monster who indulged in it, but it was not a personal thing for him.

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Ah I see it now, thanks. I think your theory is probably the closest to the philosophy the developers had when they planned the scenario. "No buts, just fight". WoL is "warrior" for a reason. Can't say I like this focus on the Disciples of War, but it's sound writing nonetheless.

I acknowledge that Zenos was looking not just for a fight, but a good fight. I also acknowledge he did not care about justice or the Imperial cause, he just paid lip service to the latter to get what he wanted. I'm not trying to redeem him or excuse his actions.

Just point out that, twisted and insane as he may have been, Zenos was but a symptom of Garlean social problems. How much of his psychopathy was simply nature is somewhat irrelevant - even if that simply was what Zenos was (and it very well could have been), if not for the Imperial social structure and philosophy he would not have been put in the position he was and made a danger to so many people (his own included). I don't share Lyse's belief in tabula rasa, but to believe that Zenos was just what he was and solely responsible for what he became is... inaccurate, I think. It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I acknowledge that Zenos was looking not just for a fight, but a good fight. I also acknowledge he did not care about justice or the Imperial cause, he just paid lip service to the latter to get what he wanted. I'm not trying to redeem him or excuse his actions.

Just point out that, twisted and insane as he may have been, Zenos was but a symptom of Garlean social problems. How much of his psychopathy was simply nature is somewhat irrelevant - even if that simply was what Zenos was (and it very well could have been), if not for the Imperial social structure and philosophy he would not have been put in the position he was and made a danger to so many people (his own included). I don't share Lyse's belief in tabula rasa, but to believe that Zenos was just what he was and solely responsible for what he became is... inaccurate, I think. It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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This this this so much. It is not contradictory to note that he ended up an irredeemable dumpster fire, but be left haunted by the impression that he was, at every developmental step, avoidable. Infants aren't born mass murderers. It's completely possible he had some hard-coded predispositions, meaning developing traits of psychopathy would be more likely than for someone without; and obviously, particularly as an adult with full agency, and excruciatingly as one with enormous social privilege, he was fully responsible for his choices.

But the reason his life and death actually moved me to mourning by the end of the MSQ is that he's a perfect reflection about what anyone can become in the wrong social contexts and no meaningful guidance or intervention. It's why I'm dying for no less than an entire lorebook comprising an ethnography of Imperial Garlemald--all we have to go on for his family life is the disturbing attitude his father has toward losing him, and what we can piece together of noble and royal life in the Empire. What kind of life history did he have where, amidst virtually limitless privileges, Zenos' psychological development was left in enough of a vacuum to produce a complete psychopath?

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Originally Posted by Jyera

the disturbing attitude his father has toward losing him

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Well on second thought, maybe his father was simply that strong of a person. "My son died. Regrettable, but meh. Yes, I care, you idiot, I just don't get affected by it. Besides, he seriously had it coming by now. I'm not stupid, like him."

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Well on second thought, maybe his father was simply that strong of a person. "My son died. Regrettable, but meh. Yes, I care, you idiot, I just don't get affected by it. Besides, he seriously had it coming by now. I'm not stupid, like him."

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Yeah, a lot of people on this forum got the wrong idea from that cutscene I feel. Rather than taking his reaction to Zenos's death as some sort of great proof of his rationality and the like, I think it was more meant to convey just how cold Varis was as a person. He was introduced spitting on the grave of his grandfather after all, it's clear the man doesn't care much for family. Granted, he might have logical reasons to hate blood relations given the whole civil war thing...but it's true either way. I also definitely agree that Garlemald and his family had a part to play in Zenos's in how he became the monster he was before his death.

Garlemald's government and military structure wouldn't try and reign in his impulses, if anything it would progress them. Their 'Might Makes Right' philosophy was probably especially appealing to Zenos, and it also allowed him an incredible amount of latitude and power despite his instabilities making him a rather poor commander and even poorer governor. Granted, societies crafting the villains is kind of a running theme in FFXIV, especially Stormblood, so it would be apt for Zenos to follow a similar mold. If anything it would connect him to the other primary antagonist of Stormbood, Yotsuyu, who also became a monster since nobody tried to help her. This also makes Lyse's push for the acceptance of others, 'An Ala Migho for everyone, even people like Fordola', more thematically appropriate.