Tales from the Storm Discussion

The problem I have with Lyse is that they have yet to show a reason that a) justifies the retcon that created her and b) the poor build up to the reveal of Lyse. All of the arguments for Lyse being a good leader/figurehead would have been equally applicable to Yda. Yda would have been more qualified actually, since she would have grown up in Ala Mhigo and would have had more experience both there and abroad. While Yda was one of the oldest of the Scions, she was also one of the least developed so the writers would have had plenty of room to develop her character over the course of Stormblood. The only reason I can come up with for Lyse's existence is that they wanted that character to be very young (not just younger, because Yda would have been younger than Conrad) and really Lyse being twenty something has yet to play any significant role in the story besides letting them draw vague parallels with her, Hien and Fordola or something something the Next Generation. Maybe that will change in the upcoming patches but . . .

Lyse's entire character begins with her very jarringly being inserted into the plot from above; there was no real foreshadowing. Yes, there was that bit with the mask in 2.55 but all that really says is that the mask had significance to her, instead they should have combined it with Moen commenting on how "Yda" had become forgetful and didn't remember any of their old shared memories or how drastically she had changed etc. Instead Moen's relationship with Yda just reaffirmed that Yda was who she and the other Scion's said she was. We knew something was up with Yda but there wasn't really any build up to Yda not actually being Yda. Not doing so failed to transfer any attachment built up towards Yda to Lyse which Stormblood, for me at least, has so far failed to rebuild. With Alisae her development and relationship with the player character has grown organically but Lyse was inserted into this weird position where we do know her but also don't. Where she isn't Yda but the narrative is trying to build off of our attachment to Yda and our character's comradery with "Yda". I'm in a minority, but Yda and Papalymo have always held a special place for me since I saw them fall off that airship when I started in Gridania in 1.0. With the Lyse/Yda retcon I feel that a character that I liked was suddenly switched with someone else entirely but *waves hand* she's always been this other person you just didn't know so you still care about her right?

Anyways, I'm glad the "Tales from . . ." series is back and while this story didn't suddenly make me change my stance on Lyse I'm looking forward to what's to come.

Naria hits it on the head. I had the same problem. It felt like this whole expansion was supposed to be about this character's development. But we don't know this person. She wasn't being herself when she was Yda, and she wasn't Yda either. So it's like pressing the reset button and forced them to establish a character while developing it at the same time. Which absolutely didn't work for me. She's also randomly shocked about the division within Ala Migho, but she's been there throughout HW so I'm not quite sure why she's still acting so shocked by people's attitudes.

Honestly, I'm pretty annoyed with the whole Scion situation. They should've just left them dead after 2.55. I mean, they might as well be dead anyway:

1- Y'Shtola: Only exception. She hasn't really changed much. But her sight makes her a ticking time bomb, so who knows.
2- Thancred: His character has completely changed. Apparently, losing Minfillia made him go from George Clooney to Clint Eastwood on us. I think they actually managed to make him less interesting than he was.
3- Minfillia: Gone to another world.
4- Papalymo: Dead
5- Yda: Was never really Yda to start with. Lyse isn't the person we knew as Yda. She might as well just be another rando.

@Belhi: But sadly I just cant see her as someone that brings different people together because for me the game did not show enough that she is capable of that. I mean for someone that should be an inspiration she never truly did a big speech to raise the motivation of the people before the fight. And even in Doma she still could not understand that people might not go into a rebellion after all the things they went through. She captures Fordola and wants to prove her that we can make Ala Mhigo free but can she truly understand the view from Fordola? It the end its just too much tell not enough show for me. And seeing how she still acted so reckless after getting the leader position..well the show that we got was not that great either.

I am not saying that I hate this character but she really did nothing much for me. And next to people like Alisaie she just pales even more.

At the same time I just cant see the reveal of her not being Yda as good. The character never met the real Yda anyway and everyone else already knew it and was fine with that..how great would it have been if we lost Yda after the bloody banquette and found out that Papalymo met her younger sister in Rhalgrs reach afterwards who then took over her identity. That would be one big reveal and it would give them the chance to already have a character that was with the resistance for quite the time. Or let her stay Yda and let her be a older woman who at least knew the people in her hometown so that it would feel way more emotional when she gets back. But this kind of reveal did nothing to me thus I might not be that hooked to her character anyway. (And a big point for Yda was always her team work with Papalymo since they were perfect for each other and this is kinda missing too.)

Just to write my own points, I am fine if someone sees her different because in the end its just subjective anyway. And I do hope that they will do more with her so that she grows more like able for me.

While there are certainly specifics in each contrary post I could endlessly discuss, I will just try to keep it general, so as not to derail the entire thread.

In short, I can accept and appreciate the many objections raised about the portrayal of Lyse as a character. But ultimately, I can't help but feel that most of these objections miss the forest for the trees.

Or, to put it another way, Lyse is to many of you naysayers what the cameo appearance of a certain actor was to many viewers of Season 7 Episode 2 of Game of Thrones.

Possible GoT S7 spoilers (and also because the following rant is only tangentially relevant to Stormblood).

As someone who had absolutely no knowledge of the actor and his accomplishments outside of his cameo appearance, I went through the entire episode blithely unaware of what the fuss was all about.

In fact, I actually liked the scene, because of how it humanised the common soldier in the Lannister army. And I thought the actor actually did quite well, bringing home the fact that, in the end, the soldier on the opposite end of the battlefield was really not that much different from his counterpart on the other end.

But many of those who went into the episode fully aware of who the actor is, were unable to dis-associate the character from the person in real-life. And, to these viewers, the cameo was distracting, and ruined the episode for them.

What can I say? It wasn't a problem for me, but it was a problem for others. My life experience is different from theirs, and that affected the way all of us approached the story.

Chalk it up, then, to subjective opinion.

But in that case, to what extent is the criticism fair? To me, it's completely unfair, especially not when an actor is trying his best to play a role. We could criticise his competency as an actor. That's fair game. But, to me, it seems grossly unfair to say he's a mistake simply because you, the viewer, can't ignore who he is in real-life, and are therefore unable to judge his acting on its own merits.

The failure, to me, is with the viewer, not in the acting, not in the casting, and certainly not with the script.

You see, to me, all this criticism about Lyse, while understandable, misses the point of how she grew as a person throughout Stormblood.

If Lyse became a completely different person simply after dropping her mask, both literally and figuratively, then perhaps I too would have had issues with the plot ret-con.

Ironically, all this criticism against her lies at the heart of why I found her portrayal throughout Stormblood to be consistent and believable: Lyse as Lyse was equally as ditzy and air-headed as when Lyse was "Yda".

These bumbling qualities — which, to many of you, disqualify her as a leader — are, to me, a crucial plot point, because it shows that Lyse didn't suddenly become competent overnight.

In fact, she stayed relatively incompetent, when compared to the other Scions and Lord Hien (as we can see from this side-story, Lyse, on her own, is actually far above average when compared to the average Eorzean; she just happens to be overshadowed by the illustrious company she keeps, and this lies at the heart of her lack of self-confidence).

This, to me, is keeping in character with who Lyse was, and it didn't strain my ability to suspend disbelief, unlike with so many of her critics.

And because I wasn't distracted by all the legacy baggage that others have attached to her, I felt I was better able to appreciate who she really was, now that finally she allowed herself to act in her own capacity. And what I saw impressed me.

As I said, the point about justice is critical to me. No one else in the story, save Lyse, realised its importance to how Ala Mhigo will move on after its liberation. It mattered to the Scions, even as war veterans like Raubahn and Hien casually brushed it away, as though the circumstances of Zenos' death were just an afterthought.

This quality alone makes Lyse a vital character to me, and it's one of the most important reasons I like her as a character throughout the story.

I don't watch Game of Thrones, but I am not sure how being unable to separate an actors current role from his previous work relates to the lack of being shown Lyse's growth, or even why we needed Lyse to be Lyse, not Yda?

Chiming in as one of those people who were not particularly impressed with Lyse, I have to say that it's not her role in Stormblood that I took issue with but her role in Final Fantasy XIV.

The same story that dedicated an entire patch series to show what exactly happens when someone whose only qualifications for being a leader is their familial relation to some famous person is put in charge of things now expects me to believe that those events won't come to pass again when the mistake is repeated. Everything about the situation screams that we're headed towards another Crystal Braves fiasco with Lyse playing the role of Alphinaud and this time Lolorito won't be there to bail us out.

I want to like Lyse, I really do, but I can't bring myself to do it until that looming shoe has dropped.

I really feel like Lyse stepped into a role that was originally written for Minfilia, which is why she got ret-conned into someone so close to Minfilia personality-wise and with such a similar backstory (both Ala Mhigan refugees, both daughters of prominent Resistance members).

Lyse is fine as a character; in my opinion the major problem with her implementation was that she didn't get enough focus in a storyline that was supposed to be about her growing as a leader for the Ala Mhigan Resistance. After the crushing defeat at Rhalgr's Reach she goes off with us to Othard, and it's not until she and Hien have a little heart to heart in the Dawn Throne's jail that Lyse starts to develop as a character. By then the vast majority of the story's over - it's just the Nadaam, assault on Doma Castle, and the relatively brief offense to Ala Mhigo. (We get to Othard at Lv61. We don't leave until Lv67. The time spent in the Far East isn't proportionate to the time spent in Gyr Abania.) It felt like that little chitchat just galvanized her into being someone completely different... to me, at any rate.

Anyway, I worry about building up one person as a symbol of hope. Bad idea.

Story was OK.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

I really feel like Lyse stepped into a role that was originally written for Minfilia, which is why she got ret-conned into someone so close to Minfilia personality-wise and with such a similar backstory (both Ala Mhigan refugees, both daughters of prominent Resistance members).

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Yeah. They even look similar - right down to Lyse now wearing a dress that shows off her figure in almost the exact same way that Minfilia's design did.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I don't watch Game of Thrones, but I am not sure how being unable to separate an actors current role from his previous work relates to the lack of being shown Lyse's growth, or even why we needed Lyse to be Lyse, not Yda?

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I drew the parallel because it seems to me that much of the criticism of Lyse stems from the feeling that there was not enough build-up to her moments in Stormblood, or that many felt the ret-con to turn her from Yda to Lyse was too sudden, and too arbitrary.

In other words, to me, there's a greater focus among her critics of who Lyse was, rather than who she's portrayed in the present moment; that's essentially the issue with the GoT episode I highlighted. Many viewers couldn't separate the fact of who the actor was, from the role he was playing at that particular point, in that particular present moment.

I concede that the way Yda was re-written into Lyse could have been done better. Or, for that matter, it may have made more sense to introduce an entirely new character, someone with a link to Yda's past. That could also have worked as a hook to tie Yda's character development with the larger story of revolution.

But, in any case, what's done is done, and Yda turned out to be Lyse. Once I got over that hump, though, I was no longer focused on it. Instead, I appreciated the ways she grew as a character throughout the story. But, again, this is a subjective opinion, and I accept that not everyone agrees that Lyse had sufficient "character development". I'll just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I worry about building up one person as a symbol of hope. Bad idea.

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I think this view misses the point. Lyse is of symbolic importance to the Resistance, but that was not the only quality that makes her a potential leader.

In Kugane, Lyse demonstrated she was still very much the "Yda" we've known all along: impulsive, reckless, all-action-before-thought. But underlining that was an over-riding concern for the safety of Gosetsu and Yugiri. She felt that the Scions had to at least investigate the namazu offer, even when everyone else smelled a rat, because if it were a trap, she was compelled to make sure that nothing untoward had happened to their Doman friends. This abiding loyalty to friends is very much the Yda we've known all along, and it's one of her most endearing qualities as a goofball.

The Ruby Sea chapter highlighted something else key to her development: We came to learn that Lyse was weighed down by the guilt of having dragged everyone into a war that they had no personal connection with. This was why she was so anxious about Alisaie, because she couldn't accept that one of her friends could be hurt on account of her limitations. Throughout the Far East chapters, there was, to me, a sense that Lyse was beating up herself inside for not being more like the WoL, someone who could apparently take on the troubles of the entire world and save the day.

This was an emotion that Alisaie, ever so perceptive, picked up. And it's not surprising that it was Alisaie who understood what Lyse was going through, because she too had recently undergone a journey of self-discovery, to accept that she alone couldn't save the world, despite her prodigious talent. That's why you'd notice that it was Alisaie who would constantly observe Lyse after the Ruby Sea, and offer moral support when required. She walked the same path, and could empathise with Lyse's inner turmoil.

And it was this inner conflict that led Lyse to eventually consult with Hien at the Azim Steppes: How was it that people could be so afraid to act, when she herself always felt the need to fight the oppression? What was she lacking, compared to Hien and the WoL, who could so easily spur others to action?

And Hien, bless him, gave surprisingly insightful advice: The sober understanding that people are ultimately pragmatic creatures, that no one would be willing to risk their lives if everyone else is content to cower and survive as best as they can. This was the belief that led Hien to offer either his head or his blade, depending on what the people wanted, the key principle that drove his action.

Those words were what convinced Lyse that, ultimately, she wasn't wrong. She had her convictions about the sheer injustice of oppression, alongside her personal desire to ensure that Papalymo and her sister Yda's sacrifices were not wasted. She had to believe in her own convictions, and trust that her actions would eventually persuade others to follow.

It's not hard to swept up by Hien's charisma and, of course, it's easy to see why a political novice like Lyse would seem so irritating compared to him. But Hien is a war veteran who barely survived a rebellion, and had already lived several years as a most-wanted fugitive. Lyse had not yet had the benefit of such development so, to me, it's highly unfair to criticise Lyse for her inadequacies at this point. To me, it was more important to note that she has, from this point on, resolved to forge ahead with her own convictions, which she believes to be just. And, more importantly, because her friends also believe her convictions to be true and sincere.

At no point in the story was Lyse arrogant or deluded about her abilities. She knew full well that she wasn't leadership material at this point, a concern that she brought up to the WoL at least twice after their return to Gyr Abania. But having been entrusted with the responsibility, she chose to step up to the plate. It helped that Raubahn himself noticed and understood her misgivings, and led her to his home village, where he too was once a hesistant footsoldier, another faceless digit in a larger war. Raubahn was right: It was good that Lyse knew her limitations, and that she would be a better leader because of it. But, at the same time, Raubahn knew it was important not to mope over one's perceived failings, and instead commit themselves to the cause, and trust that time and effort would eventually make them the better leaders that people want them to be.

That takes courage, and I wish more could see and appreciate this point. I've known many a person in real life whom I felt were potential leaders, but just didn't believe in themselves strongly enough to make the most important first step: To undertake the grave responsibility for others, and not just yourself.

So, you see, Lyse isn't just symbolic. If a symbol were all that's needed, anyone else in the Resistance could have sufficed.

Lyse is more than a symbol. She's someone who's learnt, through the journey of Stormblood, what it takes to be a leader at a time when everyone else just wants her to step down and turn away. She's someone who already has considerable fighting talent, and doesn't need to be vouchsafed as a warrior. And, most importantly, she's someone who's learnt not to be ashamed of her convictions. She's learnt to accept herself for who she is, and is no longer ashamed to give it her best shot.

So, that's how I viewed Lyse throughout the story, unburdened by the baggage that others seem to have saddled her with. I felt she was an effective character, empathised with her worries, and was inspired by her budding sense of justice. I stand by my view, but I accept that not everyone else will.

But I felt I needed to make this defence, because it's depressing to me that all the effort that went into creating her character seem to have met with nothing but derision and criticism. I felt that Oda and his team deserves to hear from at least one fan on the other side of the fence: To me, you guys did great with Lyse. There were certainly rough spots a plenty, but I felt the good outweighed the bad. :)