Lack of enthrallment in SB (spoilers?)

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

First, the echo itself doesn't prevent being tempered. Instead, it is the blessing of hydaelyn, which is some sort of stronger, all around form of echo (as opposed to the one-dimensionnal echo other NPCs like Krile have).

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Not true, it is the Echo itself that prevents tempering not the Blessing, although the Blessing of Light is connected with the Echo, the two are different (hence why when Midgardsormr seals the Blessing the player can still go and destroy Primals without risk of tempering, the Echo is unaffected and is what grants them immunity from Primal influence).

Also even in 1.0 when the Blessing did not exist the adventurer pre-Calamity was protected from Ifrit's tempering back when Ifrit appeared for the very first time, having only the Echo to protect them.

No, it's clear it's the Echo that protects a person from Primal influence (tempering), not the Blessing of Light (the later which is the manifestation of a mandala that allows the Crystals of Light to appear and function as a direct interface with Hydaelyn Herself).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Not true, it is the Echo itself that prevents tempering not the Blessing, although the Blessing of Light is connected with the Echo, the two are different (hence why when Midgardsormr seals the Blessing the player can still go and destroy Primals without risk of tempering, the Echo is unaffected and is what grants them immunity from Primal influence).

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what we learned from Krile (and to a lesser extent, Minfillia) is that the Echo takes different form, and usually people only have one aspect of its power. The WoL is seemingly the only one with all the powers at once (primal tempering resistance, vision of the past, understanding of all the languages, etc), which is tied to the blessing of Hydaelyn as far as I remember (I could very well be wrong though).

The Echo does manifest differently in different people, and with varying levels of power, but it is indeed separate and independent from the Blessing of Light.

It's the Echo that protects the mind from tempering, and this is the reason that Krile and the WoL were the initial candidates to get within close proximity of the Warring Triad, even though Krile's Echo works differently from the WoL's.

What's interesting though, is that Zenos suggested towards the end of Stormblood that it's apparently strength of will that determines how easily one would succumb to tempering. That could explain why Regula was able to largely withstand the influence of Zurvan during the battle with against the eikon, even as several of his legionnaires fell prey to its will.

That may also explain how some members of the Company of Heroes survived their battles with Titan and Leviathan before the events of ARR.

In other words, the Echo provides full protection against tempering. Without it, your mind could well end up being fried, depending on the primal's/eikon's mood. But, if you're incredibly strong-willed, you may just be able to withstand the mind attack.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

First, the echo itself doesn't prevent being tempered. Instead, it is the blessing of hydaelyn, which is some sort of stronger, all around form of echo (as opposed to the one-dimensionnal echo other NPCs like Krile have).

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Since when is that the case? At least as far as I remember it is the echo that protects us from being tempered.

The only thing that I found strange was the vril mechanic in the Lakshimi fight. Why did we need to use that (and how did we already had one from the start?) if we have the echo to protect us from tempering?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

what we learned from Krile (and to a lesser extent, Minfillia) is that the Echo takes different form, and usually people only have one aspect of its power. The WoL is seemingly the only one with all the powers at once (primal tempering resistance, vision of the past, understanding of all the languages, etc), which is tied to the blessing of Hydaelyn as far as I remember (I could very well be wrong though).

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Thats something separate from the tempering too. It was stated in the game that the echo protects us from being tempered thus why someone like Krile still went with us against the Warring Triad to free them but since she was way to weak she did not fight them. As long as you have the echo you are protected, but that does not mean that you can defeat the primal itself. Also the blessing is something completely different and we already fought our first primals with some crystals still missing and we still fought primals after our blessing was banned by Middy. If the blessing would be the part that gives us access to all the echo power we would have lost much of it after that but we did not.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

The ananta seem still able to reason after the fight, but I don't really believe they're no longer under her influence.

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I believe that Tempering in general does not strip an individual of reason, no matter which Primal does it. It simply renders the individual fanatically loyal to the Primal in question. There are cases where individuals are OVERtempered, such as that of Loon Gah's mother in the Amalj'aa beast tribe quests (she was pretty much rendered a vegetable through repeated Temperings), but those are exceptional cases, not the norm. How individuals handle that fanatical loyalty vary from individual to individual. Nael became a crazed lunatic, while Louisouix was much more cold and methodical in advancing Bahamut's designs.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Shinryu DID try to temper us, but zenos refused it by pure willpower, showing that the tempering has its limits.

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Remember that Zenos had the Resonance (a double dose, if the fact that both his eyes changed means anything), something that has been speculated to be a kind of artificial Echo. I don't think we can put a whole lot of weight behind his claim that willpower alone is enough to resist a Primal's Tempering - unless by it, you mean the willpower needed to toss you own humanity away and perform unspeakable human experimentation in order to find a way to survive. I could very much see that as being Zenos's belief, that "willpower" means to be completely unfettered, to be willing to do literally anything it takes in order to overcome your opponent.

I'm pretty sure in the cutscene prior to the Lakshmi the WoL uses their Echo to directly prevent the Scions from being Tempered. It is, as far as I'm aware, the first time we see our particular gift being used that way.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

First, the echo itself doesn't prevent being tempered. Instead, it is the blessing of hydaelyn,

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The thing that was removed from us pre-Heavensward by Midgardsormr, and would've led to Heavensward ending super early with us fighting Ravana?

Tempering isn't known to take away personality, but I do believe that the primal doing the tempering in question may be in part to blame for what happens to the afflicted. Remember that Ifrit's whole shtick is "domination," so his followers being fanatically loyal - submissive - to him makes sense. Likewise, Ramuh's "sphere" is reconciliation, which is why the touched sylphs try to kidnap the untouched (a twisted attempt at reconciling their differences) and why Ramuh himself is harsh but gives us a chance to prove ourselves.

The Blessing of Light and the Echo are not one and the same. As far as we know, the Blessing is just a comeback mechanic to help us deal with superpowered threats like Ascians and Primals - notably one of its functions seems to be protection from the Dark, if Igeyorhm's restraint after defeating Bismarck is to be believed. The Echo, on the other hand, is our protection from Primal influence and the ability to dive into the souls and memories of others. While we've never used it in that way before, the Echo being able to protect others isn't entirely without precedent - when Ifrit tries to temper us, it does create a sort of "dead zone" behind us where his flames didn't reach. Other than that, no primals save Garuda (who got some sort of feedback phenomenon thanks to the Blessing) tried to temper us before Lakshmi.

Fordola and Zenos have the Resonant Echo, which is functionally the same thing but artificially granted. (Or rather Zenos had the Resonant Echo.)

What do we have to do to summon Anonymoose into this thread? O:

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Echo, on the other hand, is our protection from Primal influence and the ability to dive into the souls and memories of others. While we've never used it in that way before, the Echo being able to protect others isn't entirely without precedent - when Ifrit tries to temper us, it does create a sort of "dead zone" behind us where his flames didn't reach.

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I think it was to show both how strong you were getting, and correlates with Zenos's theories of how the Echo prevents tempering. Your Echo was greater than Lakshmi's Echo, and nulled out her enthrallment waves.