Could Hydelan be a threat? [Spoilers]

This is a something that gets brought up and I've rewatched that scene several times in response but I don't see it. Every time it just seems like Minfila is using "regular" physical magic to stop the attack and not mind control. If Hydaelyn could exert that level of control over a Warrior of Light (say for arguments sake she can only do so if a WoL is in the Aetherial Sea) then why didn't she stop the entire WoD plot line from happening the first place? From my understanding the WoD would have had to pass through the Sea to enter our world. If she must have the Blessing evoked and an Emissary as well that's a really convoluted and specific set of circumstances. Say she only needs an Emissary. If Emissaries can control the "lower ranks" why is Elidibus at odds with so many of the Ascian overlords?

People keep wanting to equate the Echo with Tempering/loss of will but none of the Echo users in the game give any indication that they are being controlled or coerced to act in their respective Crystal's interest: not the Ascians, not the WoD, not Unukalhai, not Minfilia and not the WoL. In fact, Elidibus seems pretty certain if we knew what he knew (but can never seem to spit out, or say why he won't) we would be on Zodiark's side. Ohhh here is a thought: we've had several WoL "switch sides" as it were, how about a rogue Ascian that helps out the Scions?

At this point I think that we are headed towards solution that will impact Hydaelyn as much as Zodiark, but I think she would be accepting of that so long as it enables her children to survive. Hydaelyn's not a perfect omniscient and benevolent goddess--good. Elidibus may have a valid point--good. All these elements make for a better story and fun threads on the lore forums. :) As much as I love FFX, however, I don't think that Hydaelyn is secretly Yu Yevon.

To throw my two cents into the ring:

I do not think Hydaelyn is a threat, or evil. However, something people need to consider before passing moral judgment on the goddess is that She sees things very differently from us, so dissonance between what we believe is right or okay is to be expected.

Hydaelyn looks at the big picture. The big big picture. Zodiark threatened to upset the balance between Light and Dark, and will do so again if fully resurrected. As a result, She will do anything to prevent that from happening. We, as Her children, will all perish if Zodiark is revived. Therefore supporting Hydaelyn's goals is directly beneficial to us as well. At the same time, however, Hydaelyn likely sees individuals as expendable and, remorsefully or otherwise, will throw one or two onto the pyre if it means forestalling or preventing Zodiark's resurrection. "What is one life?" and all that, y'know?

Now, what about Minfilia? Well... unless there's clarification, Hydaelyn called her up to get swept into Flow and dumped into the aetherial sea. The goddess then had no more strength to say anything or teleport Minfilia away, leading to Minfilia offering herself up for the pyre. Was Hydaelyn aware this would be the end result? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm inclined to believe She did know (a freaking goddess should be able to know her own limitations!), but that's just my skeptical nature at work.

Us? We were essentially conscripted to be Her agent in the mortal world - Her sword and shield to fight back the Dark and keep the Light shining. While the DRK 30-50 line suggests we might not be entirely willing, at the end of the day we have little choice in the matter; even if we did turn our backs on the goddess, as outlined above doing nothing will lead to the Dark's victory and the extinguishing of all mortal life as we know it. Even if we aren't interested in supporting Hydaelyn's aims, we have to do so - for self-preservation, if nothing else. A Guardians of the Galaxy "I'm saving this planet because I'm one of the bastards who lives on it!" deal, even if you don't want to fight for Hydaelyn the goddess.

All that said I'm still wary of trusting Her precisely because of the dissonance between mortal and god values, as well as pissed She seemed to call up Minfilia for no apparent reason but eating her. (I might not have liked Minfilia, but that doesn't mean I wanted her gone or dead!)

When Hydaelyn took Minfillia as her voice it had been when Yhotsla or how ever it's spelled had used forbidden magics to transport herself and thancred out of those caverns to escape and stop thier pursuers that granted Hydaelyn the oppertunity to pull Minfillia body and soul to her. That is why Minfillia stayed behind sending the WoL ahead to continue so she could stay within range of yhostla's spell to go to hydaelyn's side, perhaps Hydaelyn had never gotten that oppertunity before thus in a sense creating the first ascian of light.

I haven't looked much at any of the lore but on a whim....

Maybe the white robbed ascian's are of both and light darkness created by Hydaelyn and Zodiark together. When Zodiark started to tip the balance towards straight darkness perhaps that's when he had created the black robbed ascian's that are driven solely by his dark will.

Granted Hydelan could be seeing the bigger picture and i actually think she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with does she act or does she bide her time what would be best for the stability of the world but what she may consider necessary (if she did tell minfilia to go bck) with taking someone's life aether to me is wrong ( obviously opinion so not basing hard fact about it) especially since we see the effect on her adoptive mother (forgot how to spell her name lol) But this makes me like Hydelan more as a character (not the character itself) since she seems almost like a mortal just with god like power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

----

---

Well since 2.0 ending there has been a great question remaining and that is the Vision of a Dark Hydaelyn.

We have yet to learn the true meaning behind that vision and so far SE has avoided giving us a answer even a small hint to a answer.

Forgive the reference to other material, but the question reminds me of the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5 - the Vorlons are "good" because their desires seem in line with the majority of civilizations and the Shadows are "evil" because their desires are to create chaos and war. But both races have the same base desire of encouraging the younger races to develop .. they just have completely opposite approaches.

To speak against Hydaelyn in terms of preserving the First - if the First is lost to the Flood then Hydaelyn loses the aether there. It's in Her best interest to prevent it from it from being lost completely .. and also possibly in her best interests to let it *almost* get wiped out since then there is less likelihood of the Ascians gaining a foothold there.

Ultimately, like in Babylon 5, I think the best interests of the mortals is not with either side but in keeping them balanced against each other.

I see Hydie as something akin to a sun. In our earth orbit, it's fine, but if it's any bigger, it scorches us like the realm where everything was turning into too much light. Too small, and we freeze. I'd suppose it'd be like having too much darkness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sagittarian

Forgive the reference to other material...

---

There's nothing to forgive, at least as far as I'm concerned. I love the lore of FFXIV in general because it takes inspiration from East Asian traditions that I identify more strongly with than the stark, good-versus-evil worldview of Biblical cosmology.

Anonymoose wrote that "classic Final Fantasy" is about "light versus darkness...without being so simple". I'll go one further and point out that "darkness", as it's presented in the franchise, is usually driven by apparently nihilistic villains who want to return the world to an original, perfect form, where the differences between good and evil, light and darkness don't matter any more.

This concept of perfection is drawn from the East Asian/Buddhist concept of "mu" ( 無 ), which literally means "nothingness". I've personally encountered a number of pastors — typically those from charismatic or evangelical denominations — who vehemently attack this idea as fatalistic and depressing, as it goes against the message of hope and salvation through Christ. This, unfortunately, stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of 無.

I find it easiest to explain the concept through Zen Buddhism, where achieving 無 is essentially about nullifying one's ego. The ego is what pushes us to strive for material gain — more wealth, high status, a beautiful wife or handsome husband, and so on — even though it's all ultimately futile, as all things are doomed to die and fade away.

But we can't help ourselves, because we're only mortal, and we're tricked by our base senses into believing that more worldly possessions will make us happy, when in fact everything is but a chain that's weighing us down and preventing us from ascending.

Buddha's great idea for transcending the pain and suffering of mortal existence is to give up all worldly desires, and hence achieve Nirvana, the state of "perfect quietude, freedom, and highest happiness", where we're finally freed from the endless cycle of death and rebirth.

And that, essentially, is what 無 is. It is perfection. Perfect stillness, where there is no more difference between light and dark, beauty and ugliness. There is no more contrast, no more need of comparison (you have more, I have less, therefore I'm miserable). All is one, and there will be eternal peace, as there's no further need to strive. You will have fundamentally accepted that the end is the same: It always ends in nothing.

Could this be the paradise that the Ascians (especially Elidibus) are after? I like to think it's a facet of what they're aiming for. On the one hand, it involves destroying everything we cherish, but on the other hand, it's for a bigger, perhaps loftier, goal.

From this perspective, is Hydaelyn a help or hindrance? Go mull on it. It's fun. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

snip.

---

That was a very interesting read...In this case. Hydelyns claims that Zodiark "sought more power" and thus was banished, yet it is also Hydelyn who is attached to the living, a situation that causes more demands as the living, particularly the sentient, seek power. Yet Hydelyn does not banish them...

By not doing so(give or take a few calamities), would that be part and parcel of Zodiark's success? The triumph of desiring more, as opposed to being content?