Goddess Sophia Lore posted.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

Failed plans for Vengeance against whom?

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Sephirot, Zurvan, their followers and Allagans I'd assume.

Ehhh, seeing with how much the narration regarding Eikons vs Primals has jumped around I'm inclined to believe that elder Primals/Eikons are the stronger beings simply because Haedelyn herself was more powerful back when they were first summoned/came into existence

Edit: kyaa~, Anonymoose-senpai has noticed me!

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

Eikons and primals are the exact same thing though

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Originally Posted by RobinMalvin

Unukalhai has stated and written in his jurnal that primals and eikons are different things.

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This is one of those, "Eh, kind of." situations. The game goes out of its way to say there's a difference (that has yet to be identified), and then treats the two terms as if they are extremely close if not sometimes interchangeable. So they are different (probably), but they're not that different.

Even Unukalhai's journal goes back and forth.

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Originally Posted by Unukalhai's Journal

The strength of a primal is determined by the fervent prayers of its faithful. And as the Meracydians' prayers called for saviors with the power to throw back an imperial invasion, the resulting incarnations were perforce imbued with nigh-incalculable might.

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Originally Posted by Item Description: Fiend Totem

This ligneous idol resembling the primal Sephirot is said to have been used by a tribe of treelike beings during summoning ceremonies.

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Originally Posted by Item Description: Warring Lanner Whistle

Summon forth the warring lanner. Favored of the primal Sephirot, it carries the seeds of the World Tree.

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Originally Posted by Sightseeing Log: The Cathedral

A cathedral designed in a distinct Meracydian style. The architecture suggests a place of worship by a tribe of treelike beings who believed themselves “remnants” of Sephirot. To research the link between faith and primal summoning, the Allagans moved the ancient structure to Azys Lla from its original location on the southern continent.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

In addition to this, from what I've gathered, the Garleans use the term "eikon" for what we define as "Primals."

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They do, though the Garleans are just emulating Allag; it's potentially an imperfect mimicry. What would an Allagan think if they heard a Garlean spouting this fount of knowledge? Would Xande have to give a "Don't be fooled by cheap imitations!" PR campaign?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

They do, though the Garleans are just emulating Allag; it's potentially an imperfect mimicry. What would an Allagan think if they heard a Garlean spouting this fount of knowledge? Would Xande have to give a "Don't be fooled by cheap imitations!" PR campaign?

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"You call this weak manifestation an Eikon!? It cannot compare to the might of the Three that power our great facility at Azys Lla! They are but a shadow of the true power of an Eikon!" Or something.

"All Eikons are Primals, but not all Primals are Eikons", is how I've always understood it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Sephirot, Zurvan, their followers and Allagans I'd assume.

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Allagans for sure, but what makes you think they'd have something against Sephirot, Zurvan, and their followers, out of curiosity? There's nothing that indicates the Warring Triad stood opposed to each other at the time of their imprisonment, save maybe the name, and without supporting stuff in the in-game text, I hesitate to assume it means they were warring with each other.

It makes me wonder though, if Sophia wouldn't be a really super duper angry goddess, wouldn't the harmony she brings be exactly what is pretty much needed?
A world filled with harmony? Now there are some things that would destroy it (Like no one being any different from each other, everyone being the same, no "mind" of their own or another scenario like world filled with harmony but it being a cruel dictatorship or something, you get the idea) but what if there wasn't a twist to her harmony?
OR is it meant to be an imperfect world? It's "50% bad and 50% good" sort of thing. Well thinking of it, Balance/Equilibrium should mean exactly this, huh?

She also wants revenge but doesn't that kind of contradict what she stands for? Because mindlessly killing would destroy equilibrium....or wouldn't it? Unless she can create life I guess to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

This is one of those, "Eh, kind of." situations. The game goes out of its way to say there's a difference (that has yet to be identified), and then treats the two terms as if they are extremely close if not sometimes interchangeable. So they are different (probably), but they're not that different.

Even Unukalhai's journal goes back and forth.

They do, though the Garleans are just emulating Allag; it's potentially an imperfect mimicry. What would an Allagan think if they heard a Garlean spouting this fount of knowledge? Would Xande have to give a "Don't be fooled by cheap imitations!" PR campaign?

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The descriptions of the eikon materials hint the same thing:

"A large piece of cured beastkin skin blessed by a primal."
"Finely woven cloth blessed by a primal."
"A heavy piece of unidentifiable metal blessed by a primal."
"An ingot of smelted iron blessed by a primal."
"The skin of a large, yet unidentifiable creature, blessed by a primal."

But I'm still convinced that there is this one difference we can't just nail yet.

Maybe something about the elemental aspects...

◾ Ifrit => Fire
◾ Garuda => Wind
◾ Titan => Earth
◾ Good King Moggle Mog XII => Ice (according to the TT card)
◾ Leviathan => Water
◾ Ramuh => Lightning
◾ Shiva => Ice
◾ Ravana => Earth & Fire
◾ Bismarck => Water & Wind
◾ Odin => ???
◾ Bahamut => ??? (possible fire & earth & wind, looking at his attacks: earthshaker/gigaflare/Tornados)
◾ Phoenix => ??? (possible fire)
◾ King Thordan => ???
◾ Alexander => ???
◾ Sephirot => ???
◾ Sophia => ???

At least you can take the dialogue of Unukalhai as a hint for that:


Unukalhai: Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva. Born of the land and returned to it.
Unukalhai: Six primals, one for every elemental aspect. So where does that leave Ravana and Bismarck?
Unukalhai: Earth and fire. Water and wind. Your latest foes are aspected to not one element but two.
Unukalhai: A rather simple but noteworthy distinction, for it allows them to feed upon aether that much more efficiently.
Unukalhai: But, like their predecessors, there is but one recourse: they must be felled, and you are the one to whom we must turn to see it done.
Unukalhai: However, unlike before, I do not think this the work of those Ascians...
Unukalhai: It has ever been said that Eorzea is a land embraced by gods. For weal or for woe, I should wonder.


But, oh well...

"Precisely how they stand apart from primals we have yet to determine."

Maybe Eikons were something like real eorzean gods*, while primals are just summoned elemental aspected imaginations of literally anything worshipped in the past (leaders/persons like the original shiva or "fictional"/"made up" gods).
I don't know exactly, but don't have aspected elemental crystals something to do with the according calamity/era, so there might have been a time where certain primals couldn't be summoned yet, because of a lack of the "correctly" aspected aether?

Sephirot is wind and earth.
Sophia is wind and thunder. Maybe something else additionally.
Bahamut could be Earth Wind and Fire but that's pure speculation from my part.
Odin was earth and....I forgot what else. Lightning perhaps? It's been too long since Odin.
Thordan uses Fire and Ice based attacks so my guess would be Thordan is Fire and Ice. Remember the power from the knights comes from Thordan.
There was also a speculation of Sephirot being additionaly water but that's just a theory afaik.

A theory I had is that an Eikon is 3 elements and primals are like bismark or Garuda with only 1/2 elements.

I posted this over in the Song Lyrics thread, so apologies for the self-quote, but this was my thought on the nature of Eikons: they're not any elemental aspect, but rather a universal aspect. Things like chaos, order, life, death, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

And that may be possible, Catapult. A major aspect of Sophia seems to be balance, so this ancient civilization may value the equilibrium of existence--something that only the planet can control. That then makes me wonder if what truly separates an Eikon from a Primal is that Eikons are embodiments of the natural order of the world rather than just aetheric aspects given a more substantial form. Aether is fluid, in the sense that it flows from one thing to another. It may have an element, but it is always moving from one state or host to another, lending the Primals their relatively ephemeral nature. But concepts such as life and death are far more permanent and long-standing in people's thoughts. As Primals are prayers and thoughts made manifest, wouldn't it make sense that far more permanent aspects be much sturdier and long-living?

Sephirot is Life. Odin is Death. Sophia is Order. Would Zurvan be Chaos, then? Amusingly enough, these concepts are much more "Primal" than Primals themselves (pardon the pun, haha!)

EDIT: And, just had this thought: that is why they don't require followers or crystals to maintain themselves. They aren't fueled by the thoughts or prayers of a small handful of followers, but by nearly every living thing in existence! Their source of sustenance is, for all intents and purposes, infinite. Although, as we learned with Odin, they still need Aether, and since they aren't offered crystals and their worship is very indirect, they draw aether from their environment to reform themselves assuming they aren't eliminated outright.

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The way I understood the Eikon vs Primal definition was that all summoned beings are Primals but those that are exceptionally powerful as a result of some specific difference (that we aren't yet certain of) are also called Eikons.

The best theory I've seen thus far is that Eikons differ in that they are summoned using some kind of pre-existing physical object; they aren't purely aetherial manifestations. Sephirot was apparently a tree that his tribe used to worship and revere as the Tree of Life. Odin was revealed to actually be a sword and not the swordsman himself. Similarly Sophia has a set of scales which I speculate may actually be her anchor in some form.

It's interesting that she seems to have been the ancient goddess of a previous multi-racial state similar to Eorzea though. The implications of that could be quite big, especially given the Azeyma comparisons people have been drawing.