Unchained. Seriously, why are we not abusing this skill?

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

so, unchained and berserk in defiance(without unchained) which one gives bigger boost to damage?

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Unchained raises you from 75% to 100% (A buff of +33.3% damage - stronger than Fight or Flight!)
Berserk raises you from 75% to ~75%x150% = 112.5%

Maim and Storm's Eye make the difference larger.

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Originally Posted by BattleGrace

so do please tell me why again you should be the OT? it's not damage, it's not raid damage, it's your over inflated ego that thinks it's topdog dps.

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Wasn't WAR sort of shoe horned into the off tank role because of the rep it got for not being very tanky? The job overhaul (the one that added a damage reduction to vengeance and some other changes) made them solid tanks, but PLD were too high and mighty to step away from the main tank role.

Because moar DEEPS.
Duh !

Yes, it's sad...

I think this really depends on the party setup.I'm assuming the reason people don't open up this way for the most part is that if say there's a dragoon in the party it's worth staying in deliverance on opening for that higher fell cleave crit chance.Given the long cooldowns on some of the party buffs in general you're probably still losing more dps overall.
Most competant MT's can stay in their offensive stance when dealing with a single target boss anyway.
Hell you could just open with a tripple cleave on warrior and hold agro on boss that way and let pld switch after anyway.

I love using unchained as often as I can, when it's the right time. This includes my openers, but also times when I want to keep my deliverance-like damage while being in defiance. Mainly done when a situation calls for me staying in defiance longer than usual cause the healers need the help, and I don't want to waste wrath stacks but IB isn't necessary. Otherwise, I'm in deliverance cycling through defensives as the situation calls for using all stacks on FC.

A lot of people in this thread are drastically missing the point.

No matter what your party comp consists of, it is always - always - always - optimal for raid DPS to have the WAR do their 1-minute cooldown opener with Unchained chaining into Deliverance>Berserk and then have the other tank swap in on Pacify. It allows both tanks to do near-perfect opening DPS on the pull without threat issues at the start or in the long run. The issue with this is that it's a JP strat, not NA/EU. The mentality of NA/EU players is different from that of the JP players. Where they consider ways of making micro optimizations here and there to the overall benefit of the raid, we have this unfortunate strict definition of MT and OT and whoever pulls is MT.

Basically, the tanking roles are and should be considered to be more fluid than that.


Also in regards to what Metalwrath said, I don't play WAR, but I am 99.9% positive that your Berserk is delayed by the exact same amount whether you drop an unchained butcher's block first or if that first BB is Deliverance as the off-tank. You're not gonna Berserk before you've built 4 stacks, which takes 2 combos, which is all you'll be in Defiance for anyway with an Unchained pull.

http://ffxivrotations.com/613 versus http://ffxivrotations.com/615

(can obv swap the Infuriate Fell Cleave to be the second not the third if wanted for additional gains off party buffs)

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Originally Posted by Brian_

From that perspective, Unchained is one of the strongest defensive CDs in the game.

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Considering that you should never be stanceless, Unchained is thus a Defensive cooldown that decreases your damage by 5% while locking your most powerful skill for slightly less than 25% increase in eHP.
So, basically, it's weaker than Rampart.

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Originally Posted by BattleGrace

you think too small if you think that your triple fell cleave is the be all and end all of dps and frankly it's selfish to think that just because your personal dps is good or decent that you are helping the raid. the fact is that WAR has the best threat and will do 5% less damage with a unchained opener and 1 less FC while also providing a massive boost in overall raid dps thanks to your PLD or DRK doing X% more damage thanks to not being in their tank stance.

whats funnier more is you claim that WAR still does more burst then any melee, that right there is a complete lie.

so do please tell me why again you should be the OT? it's not damage, it's not raid damage, it's your over inflated ego that thinks it's topdog dps.

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Firstly; I am just as likely to use my DRK as I am to use my WAR, They literally have the same gear and Itemlevel and I'd like to think that I'm decent at both of them, with PLD slowly climbing it's way to 60 as well...


My oppinion is based upon what I've seen and experienced with the classes, both as MT and OT.

The 20 seconds after you activate Berserk, you'll do roughly 4800 Potency's worth of damage. If there's a melee (We all know that MCH has *The* Burst combo) that can do the same or better in the same amount of time, please prove me wrong and I'll happily cede that claim... Also; Please refrain from calling me a liar.

I'm not even sure what your actual argument here is... A WAR *Has* the best dps of the tank classes. The Raid's priority *is* (after survival) the amount of damage it does to the boss, as virtually all end-game bosses has a enrage mechanic that hits unless you kill it within a given amount of time.

A Raid *will* have two out of the three tank classes. A WAR *is* the best at dpsing, the same way DRK mitigates magic damage and a PLD is unbeatable at taking physical hits.

A DRK's main mitigation skill and resource gain *requires* it to be hit. A PLD's entire shtick is to have Block on top of it's cooldowns to passively mitigate damage and ease the burden on your healers.

A WAR's entire toolset *is* designed around boosting it's own damage and self-heal rather than mitigate damage. Unlike the other two it doesn't need to be MT to utilize it's full skillset, and it's raid-affecting skills both rotate from it's non-enmity combo.

The only instance where another tank class needs to leave tank stance is when a DRK uses Blood Weapon, which it can do and still hold aggro if it's properly timed and you communicate with your raid's DPS and healers. Dark Arts and Powerslash is a wonderful thing when combined.

That you've somehow gotten it into your head that a DRK or PLD in offensive stance is better at dpsing than a Deliverance WAR is beyond me. That you somehow think that higher enmity (which still always caps at "The boss is hitting me") is more important than higher damage confuses me.

A competent tank *will* hold aggro, no matter what class it is.

So yes, it is my honest and sincere oppinion that WAR's greatest benefit to it's Raid group is as a Deliverance-using Offtank that takes advantage of it's skillset to pack as much concentrated dps into it's rotations and cooldowns as it can.

It is my oppinion that a WAR that's MT'ing should rely on Inner Beast rather than Unchained, as it can hold aggro anyway and the 6 seconds of mitigation and the 300 potency self-heal offers more Raid-wide benefits than "Pulling harder on the boss I'm already pulling and holding".

Sit down, son.

Machinist: 7306.53 potency done during the duration of Wildfire (including the WF pop).
Dragoon: 6446.59 potency done while Blood for Blood is active.

Neither of these include the 3 (MCH) or 2 (DRG) lead-up GCDs before the period I measured. Both of these end less than 25s into the fight.

BLM is likely higher than either, considering the fact that their Fire IV (of which there are 5-6 in the opener) is 500+ potency without Raging Strikes included.

4800 is garbage.

Calculations:

In the 15s during Wildfire, a Machinist will do:
Slug Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A] 200x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 455.85
Clean Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A+Auto-Crit] 220x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.5x1.05 = 752.16
Split Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A] 160x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 364.68
Slug Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A] 200x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 455.85
Split Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A] 160x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 364.68
Slug Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB+A] 200x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 455.85
Clean Shot [HE+B4B+RS+HC+GB] 200x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 455.85
Slug Shot [HC+GB] 180x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 270.27
Split Shot [HC] 140x1.1x1.05 = 161.7

Total for GCDs: 3736.89

In addition to:
Gauss Round 200x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 455.85
Ricochet 300x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 683.78
Blank 100x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 227.93
Head Graze 100x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05 = 227.93

Total for oGCDs: 1595.49

And 5 ticks of Lead Shot:
45x1.15x1.1x1.2x1.1x1.3x1.05x5 = 512.84

That totals to: 5845.22
Wildfire deals 25% of that: 1461.31

The final total is: 7306.53 potency.
And I didn't include Disembowel or Trick Attack.

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In the 20s of Blood for Blood, a Dragoon will do:
Disembowel 220x1.15x1.3 = 328.9
Chaos Thrust 250x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 411.125
Chaos Thrust dot 35x8.2x1.15x1.3 = 429.065
4th Hit 290x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 476.905
Phlebotomize 170x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 279.565
Phleb DoT 30x8x1.15x1.3 = 358.8
True Thrust 150x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 246.675
Vorpal Thrust = 200x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 328.9
Full Thrust = 360x1.15x1.3x1.1x1.5 = 888.03
4th Hit 290x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 476.905
Heavy Thrust 170x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 279.565

Total for GCDs: 4504.435

While also hitting:
Leg Sweep 120x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 197.34
Jump 200x1.5x1.3x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 641.355
Spineshatter 170x1.3x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 363.435
Dragonfire 250x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 411.125
Geirskogul 200x1.15x1.3x1.1 = 328.9

Total for oGCDs: 1942.155

The final total is: 6446.59
Again, not including Hypercharge or Trick Attack.
I also didn't adjust for the +25% crit chance that these skills all have.
(15% for Dis -> second 4th, 10% for Dis -> VT, 25% on every ogcd)

//EDIT:

WAR is not ~4800, but actually ~6178.41 potency during a properly executed triple-fell-cleave Berserk. Much better than 4800, but still below the two shown above and likely most - if not all - other DPS Jobs. They /might/ be able to beat MNK and NIN burst, but I'd be shocked if they beat a proper BRD, BLM, or SMN opener. I just can't be arsed to calculate all of these.

The triple Fell Cleave Berserk looks like this:
Fell Cleave 500x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 1039.5
Maim 190x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 395.01
Storm's Eye 270x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 561.33
Heavy Swing 150x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 311.85
Skull Sunder 200x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 415.8
Butcher's Block 280x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 582.12
Fracture 100x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 207.9
Fracture DoT 20x10x1.05x1.5x1.2 = 378
Fell Cleave 500x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 1039.5
Fell Cleave 500x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 1039.5

Brutal Swing 100x1.05x1.5x1.2x1.1 = 207.9

Total: 6178.41

NONE of the above takes Auto Attacks into account. MCH has no autos, but they DO have a 160 damage auto from the Turret every 3s for that duration. It doesn't get any buffs besides its own Hypercharge, but all 5 of those hits add on to the Wildfire pop.

DRG AA's are stronger than WAR AA's, by which I mean a delay of 3.44 = 5-6 AA's in Berserk, while a delay of 2.88 = 6-7 AA's in B4B.

I think some of you are missing the point. A warrior doing an Unchained pull enables both tanks to be in dps stance for the entire fight even if you dont have a NIN. The PLD/DRK simply provokes after the opener and the war can go back to fell cleaving to their heart's content. For a paladin that's 10 minutes of not having damage penalty from shield oath and 10 minutes of using Royal Authority instead Rage of Halone while they still get shield swipe procs.