The Omega

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

No point to give information to a civilization that doesn't have the technological means to make such weapons I suppose.

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Either that, or they explicitly chose those civilizations because they were incapable of making such weapons.

In theory, the Ascians could have given such toys to the Garlean Empire, but they haven't. They could have also made such deals with Ishgard under the pretenses of helping them with the war on dragons, but they didn't do that either. My opinion on this is that they haven't made such offers because they are afraid of a repeat of the Allagan Empire, the primary evidence being the situation with Bahamut. When he was released, we were given a cutscene in which an Ascian was ecstatic, saying something about how he didn't think he'd get to see Bahamut again. He then burst out into maniacal laughter. With this, and the fact that the Ascians have withheld such technologies since then, I'm given the impression that the enslavement or containment of Primals wasn't part of their master plan. It's just speculation, but I have a feeling that the Allagan's developed themselves far more than the Ascian's bargained for, and their widely successful conquest of primals actually ended up working against the Ascians until the fall of their civilization.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Regardless, what I find more interesting is that since the fall of the Allagan empire, the Ascians have almost never provided similar technological support to any other species in Eorzea (Ultima Weapon being the one possible exception).

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Have they not? Isn't there the impending threat of a civilization who very rapidly developed new technologies and is even advanced enough to utilize Allagan technologies? I'm not saying the Garleans could only do it with the help of the Ascians, but I am saying their rapid rise to prominence from a very small nation is suspicious, especially when their rise threatens the beast tribes, which causes them to summon their Primals, the Ascians' goal.

We don't have any explicit information that the Ascians have helped any advanced civilization on a grand scale like the Allag. However, it's entirely possible whispering in the ears of Allag about Dalamud and the Heart of Sabik isn't much different than Lahabrea whispering in Gaius' ear about the Ultima Weapon. The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Astral Era histories are large unknowns, but in the Third, Sixth, and Seventh we do have an "advanced civilization" in each one. Allag, Mhach, and Garlemald.

Should the Ascians be in direct opposition to Allag imprisoning Primals--there's a contradiction. An unknown gang of Ascians specifically gave Allag "the means to entrap" Bahamut. There wasn't much room for interpretation in Tiamat's words.

I'm a subscriber to Ascians definitely helped Solus with the conquering of Islabard just because of what it caused: a shitton of war. Grand wars seem to work favorably for the Ascians and their necessary "chaotic confluence." You elevate one people far above the others so that they seek out and subjugate the myriad masses then pull the rug out from under their Empire. They help you set up the Jenga tower just so they can knock it down. It's probably a case of it's easier to knock down one huge tower than a bunch of little ones-- I don't know I'm not a crazy semi-immortal in a black robe. All I know is the Ascians like conflict. Preferably with an increasingly dangerous arms race. They don't want one side to win, they just wanna ruin everyone's day.

As for the Mhach, that's even more conjecture on my part. The Ascians seem keen on helping people summon voidsent or summoning voidsent themselves. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Probably something to deal with disrupting the aether of Hydaelyn, since so many voidsent love to feed on it and is easier to pull off than a Primal summoning. The three nations during the War of the Magi seemed to be pretty equally "advanced," but only the Mhach had something like the Void Ark. There must be some degree of aetherscience behind getting that to fly. The Nymians had their clockwork/stratagems and Amdapori their soulkin/conjury but it really feels like the Mhach were, well, the enemy.

Let us not forget white magic was invented in response to the use of black magic--the Mhachi had already began using the land's aether against their enemies. The magical arms race began with the Mhach! It is somewhat curious that in the Third and Seventh Era the advanced civilizations were 'technologically' advanced while the Sixth was 'magically.' Maybe it's an odd/even thing the Ascians do to keep things fresh. Fostering wars seems to be a big Ascian thing.

This does, of course, rather unceremoniously allow some "well then Solus, Xande, Thordans I & VII aren't all bad! it was those dastardly Ascians!" I... meant... to just post that bit about Tiamat and the Ascians knew exactly what the Allags were going to do with Dalamud... and that Bahamut wouldn't be considered an "elder primal" during the Third Astral Era (when he was captured by Omega)...

Ib4 Omega becoming the next endgame raid....

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Have they not? Isn't there the impending threat of a civilization who very rapidly developed new technologies and is even advanced enough to utilize Allagan technologies? I'm not saying the Garleans could only do it with the help of the Ascians, but I am saying their rapid rise to prominence from a very small nation is suspicious, especially when their rise threatens the beast tribes, which causes them to summon their Primals, the Ascians' goal.

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It's actually more likely that they haven't been given any Ascian help, or, if they have, the help they've been given is quite minimal by comparison to the Allgans.

Most of the Magitek gizmos are radically different in design form Allgan technologies (at least in appearance), and their creation has already been attributed to specific individuals. Of them, Nero is the most suspicious as he had dealings with an Lahabrea in the past, but it does not seem like those dealings involved the sharing of technologies. If they did, then there would have been no need for Nero to have spied on us during our fights with Ifrit and Titan. Lahabrea would have just told him what he wanted to know.

Further, as much as Garlemald's rapid expansion could cause an increase in for primal summonings (which is really only the case for the Sylphs and, maybe, the Vanu), the subsequent capture and enslavement or destruction of those primals is most likely not on the agenda for Ascians. Keep in mind that the Garlean Empire has a zero tolerance policy for primal summoning. Their end game is to destroy them, even at the cost of the entire species which summoned them. The immediate conflict would probably make the Ascians happy, but the overall effect would be opposite to their goals, given that the land would start to heal as soon as the primal and it's summoners were dead.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Should the Ascians be in direct opposition to Allag imprisoning Primals--there's a contradiction. An unknown gang of Ascians specifically gave Allag "the means to entrap" Bahamut. There wasn't much room for interpretation in Tiamat's words.

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Of this there is little doubt; however, that does not mean that the Ascians did not eventually come to the conclusion that this was a mistake. The reason being that the result was the exact opposite of what they intended.

You're right to point out that there is a trend to be seen here. Each era ends with the fall of an advanced civilization. However, you're overlooking what happened before that fall occurred. We know from the Crystal Tower quest line that before the fall of the Allgan Empire, they enjoyed a very long time of peace and prosperity. We have no way of knowing how long this peace lasted, but it was long enough for the Allagan's to become complacent and start to stagnate as a civilization. Because of this, and because they lacked strong leadership, Amon cloned Xande, and Xande went on to try and finish the conquest he started in his first life. This caused several uprisings and, eventually, the cataclysmic attempt to store all of Dalamud's power within the Crystal Tower in a last ditch effort to open the portal to the World of Darkness.

Before that cataclysm happened, though, the Allagans were at peace and had more than they could ever need. Primal threats were at a minimum and any that did occur were likely quickly subdued. If it wasn't for Amon and Xande, it's entirely possible that the Allgan Empire would have just kept along without any conflicts whatsoever, sharing the warm light of civilization and boundless resources with everyone and anyone. Obviously, that would be unacceptable to an Ascian. With that in mind, it's very likely that they don't want to risk repeating what happened with the Allagans. To avoid the possibility of a future without Primals, it would make sense for them to withhold such technological support from any other civilization, no matter how warmongering that civilization is. The Garlean Empire, in particular, would seem like the last person they'd want to have such technologies, because they've already made it very clear that they are more than willing to destroy every primal they meet, as well as that primal's summoner in order to prevent any future summonings.

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Originally Posted by Februs

If it wasn't for Amon and Xande, it's entirely possible that the Allgan Empire would have just kept along without any conflicts whatsoever, sharing the warm light of civilization and boundless resources with everyone and anyone. Obviously, that would be unacceptable to an Ascian. With that in mind, it's very likely that they'd want to avoid any such possibilities in the future, especially with a race of people who would be willing to completely snuff out any Primal threats by eliminating the entire summoning race.

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Objection!

(bolded for emphasis)

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Originally Posted by Unei

The Allagan Empire reached its zenith long before our kind came into being.
In that glorious age, the Crystal Tower stood tall as the symbol of Allagan pride. Parents took their children there, that they might learn how the nigh limitless energy it produced brought prosperity to the whole empire.

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Originally Posted by Doga

That prosperity, however, bred decadence, and the empire began to show signs of stagnation. This decline was made all the more rapid for want of strong leadership.
In a matter of generations, the Allagan civilization became a pale shadow of its former self. Its once gleaming cities fell into disrepair, and its frontier lands were given over to the wilderness.

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I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like an enduring, perfect society to me. Alas, their decline was a real, tangible event, not just paranoid fearmongering. It was also fairly short, as it took mere generations for the decline to become apparent.

Which actually makes it all the more interesting if the Ascians' original plan was to save the declining Allagan society, and it backfired.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Objection!

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Sustained lol.

You are correct.It is highly unlikely that the Allgan empire would have endured had Amon and Xande not made an even bigger mess of things given that it was already starting to decline ... however you're also kind of proving the rest of my point lol.

Like I said, we were openly told that, at it's peak, the Allagan civilization enjoyed peace and prosperity across its entire empire (which, by definition, would include its subjugated states as well). That prosperity was brought on by a limitless energy supplied by the Crystal Tower and Dalamud. This means that the prosperity the Allagans enjoyed, no matter how brief, was in part supplied by the technology they received (and likely modified) from the Ascians (oops).

We also cannot say that it was a short time of prosperity. Doga specified that it lasted for "generations." Note the use of a plural. That means a minimum of two generations, at least, in a civilization in which the average lifespan was likely quite long (due to their extreme advances in science and magic. Regardless, even if it was a short time, which is unlikely, I doubt that the Ascians were happy about it. Given that they want to cause as much destruction and drain as much aether out of the land as possible, any amount of prolonged peace is a bad thing for them, and they probably don't want to risk this happening a second time with any other civilization.

In fact, I can totally see them engineering the downfall of the Allgan Empire just to put a stop to it. Given their penchant for manipulation, it's possible that they started manipulating the people to spread decadence in the populace. It's also possible that they were the ones who put the idea of resurrecting Xande into Amon's head in the first place. Who knows, but I think it's a safe bet that they were pretty happy to see the Crystal Tower destroy the entire civilization.

And now we're meandering back towards the debate on exactly how much of human folly and disaster can be traced to an external source, and whether or not it was merely the weakness of some humans failing to resist the temptations of some decidedly inhuman evil that brought about the Calamities. That debate.

Pardon my super sarcastic tone, but I don't buy it, never will. I also don't really want to go into that. Again. Humans are the sole agents of their destruction, but also the sole agents of their salvation, blah blah blah wow my navel is awfully perky today blah.

You're free to believe what you want until we know more, but personally, I think the Ascians do little more than take advantage of the notions humans get on their own. The Garlean invasion? Human ambition. The Ultima Weapon? An Ascian merely pointed out a little-known book on a shelf in the Imperial Archives and let Gaius and Nero handle the rest. The invasion would have happened differently, sure, but it still would have happened.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

And now we're meandering back towards the debate on exactly how much of human folly and disaster can be traced to an external source, and whether or not it was merely the weakness of some humans failing to resist the temptations of some decidedly inhuman evil that brought about the Calamities. That debate.

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Well, when it comes to Ascians, that's pretty much the implied undertone of the entire game.

That said, I'm not really sure where you're going with this anymore. Hypothetical conjecture aside, my original point was that actually exactly what you're saying. I don't think the Ascians have had nearly as much involvement with the Allagans or Garleans (especially not the Garleans) as most people give them credit for. I'm just drawing a inference for why they haven't been as involved, especially in recent years.

We know from Tiamat that the Ascians did, in fact, give technology to entrap Bahamut to the Allagans, and that the immediate result before the earthquake was a time of peace that lasted generations. That sounds like a pretty big backfire to that plan, to me; so, it would make sense that they don't want to risk repeating the same mistake with anyone else. Hence, no more technological handouts. How much or how little involvement they've had with manipulating events behind the scenes is beside the point. Direct influence via technology such as Omega or Dalamud has been lacking.