If best way is the only...why do we see different setups ?

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Most players already switched tank away from PLD, same with healers and DPS...

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Most of the tanks who switched from PLD thinking they'd clear Savage still failed for months before succeeding...that is to say, far far after having a PLD wasn't an issue anymore.

They just did that "because the elite said so", without realizing that it's not because they had the best setup, but because they are the best players.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

True. However, when you do the encounters a couple of weeks later (better gear and what not), it does not mean the "best" way isn't best anymore.

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I'm not saying it's not the best, I'm just saying that it doesn't matter.
In regards to customization, it's not because the elite players will find the best build for any job that the vast majority (emphasis on vast) will have no issue whatsoever playing and enjoying their character with a more peculiar build.

I'll say that, while only have cleared A1S, I've kept playing my PLD despite getting insulted and sometimes outright harassed in Duty Finder for "slowing them down" or "being suboptimal" (Before anyone says to git gud, note that these comments usually come at the start of a run, when they see a PLD tank, before they even see how I preform.) In fact, there was certain individual on my server, whose name will obviously not be said, who, until recently, kept Job locking his PF's for Thordan EX to WAR/DRK because he had such a bias against PLD.

People will still gravitate towards what everyone considers the best because of this game has effectively turned into an efficiency simulator. Even if the other "worse" jobs/strategies can clear content, people will prefer the jobs/strategies because they're faster or offer less of a chance of failure. Or simply because they read something on the internet that says "lol, PLD/AST/MCH/whatever sux" and nothing on the internet can be wrong, right?

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Originally Posted by Ironos

In fact, there was certain individual on my server, whose name will obviously not be said, who, until recently, kept Job locking his PF's for Thordan EX to WAR/DRK because he had such a bias against PLD.

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TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

Though I feel that a party that is excluding jobs just because they think they are bad (PLD/AST/MCH as you say) is one you shouldn't feel overly bad about not being able to get into. Not the type of people I feel I'd want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

Though I feel that a party that is excluding jobs just because they think they are bad (PLD/AST/MCH as you say) is one you shouldn't feel overly bad about not being able to get into. Not the type of people I feel I'd want to play with.

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Oh, I'm not denying their right to deny whatever Job they want in their own PF. They were well within their right to exclude PLD or whatever else they want. I was just using that as an example as to how people blatantly exclude or avoid certain Jobs because they view them as "bad" for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

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That's exactly why everything should be available via the Duty Finder right away.
It's stupid to restrict queuing because "it will be difficult to clear the content".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's exactly why everything should be available via the Duty Finder right away.
It's stupid to restrict queuing because "it will be difficult to clear the content".

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Oh I agree everything should be in the DF straight away. If people want to DF for something even if others claim theres no chance to clear in DF they should have the right to do so.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I completely agree with this, but isn't that the argument of the whole illusion of choice, that the best way is the only way?

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I think "illusion of choice" gets incorrectly applied to a lot of situations where there actually is a legitimate choice. It comes to down to whether the choice is being made on objective or subjective grounds.

It's valid for something like simple gear choices and simple stats. If I'm a DPS evaluating two pieces of gear for a slot, neither one of them changes how I play the class (this part is important and I'll come back to it in a bit), and one of them will make me do more damage than the other, the choice here is clearly an illusion. I have the option to "choose" to use the piece of gear that will make me do less damage, but since my goal as a DPS is to do more damage, there's no reason to do so.

Choosing between two different classes to play, however, is not something that can be simplified to a correct or incorrect decision. FFLogs shows monk having generally higher DPS than dragoon, but if someone is personally better with dragoon's rotation or enjoys playing dragoon more or is in a group where someone else is already playing monk then the correct decision may be to play dragoon even though monk has the higher DPS potential. There's no illusion to the choice here; both options have pros and cons.

I mentioned above that it's important that a piece of gear needs to not change the way you play a class in order for the choice to be an illusion. I say that because it's perfectly possible to have gear that presents genuine choices, but it usually requires more creativity. Take bard, for example. A piece of gear with an effect like "Raging Strikes Effect +5%" is probably going to end up being either superior or inferior to the alternatives. If it's superior, you'll use it, if it's inferior, you won't. It's a more interesting stat than Determination or Skill Speed, but it's still probably an illusion.

But what if you had a piece of gear that changed how Wanderer's Paeon worked. Instead of +30% damage and moving interrupting your casts, what if it now gave +20% damage, allowed you to cast while moving, but added a 50% heavy effect? Or if you had a piece of gear with noticeably less DEX than similar gear in the tier, but it slowly accumulated up to three charges and each charge let you move without interrupting a cast once?

Now you're making a choice between higher damage and increased flexibility. If you're skill and comfort levels are high enough that you can manage your rotation perfectly in spite of the mechanics of a given fight, you're likely looking at the first option. But if you're new to a fight or there's a mechanic you have trouble with, maybe the other options would let you personally do more DPS by reducing the penalty of movement.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um, hadn't that group with the first clear on the chinese servers, previously played on Japanese servers as well, cleared A4S there, and practiced a specific strategy to enable them to clear it far more quickly than others on the Chinese Servers?

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Yes, but I'm not sure that changes anything about what I said.

Unless no alternative route to completion exists, the best way is not the only way.

Some people put the min/maxing meta over their freedom and fun. I've lost count of how many times I've read people complaining about "my static is making me change from X class to Y class, I don't like that class but I have to learn it and play".

Personally, I would never be ok with this type of decision, and I know a lot of people agree with me. That's just their way of playing, so taking the "best combination" as a norm is quite unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Some people put the min/maxing meta over their freedom and fun. I've lost count of how many times I've read people complaining about "my static is making me change from X class to Y class, I don't like that class but I have to learn it and play".

Personally, I would never be ok with this type of decision, and I know a lot of people agree with me. That's just their way of playing, so taking the "best combination" as a norm is quite unreasonable.

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Problem is, once groups find themselves hitting a wall, they start looking for every advantage they can get to clear that hurdle. Sometimes you have to do something you don't necessarily like for the sake of your group, and that's just the way it is

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Problem is, once groups find themselves hitting a wall, they start looking for every advantage they can get to clear that hurdle. Sometimes you have to do something you don't necessarily like for the sake of your group, and that's just the way it is

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In my group, we stick to the main job people want to play, except when it doesn't offer a viable setup (Sorry, 7 BRD is not a viable setup :p). The most we do is having a second role available to compensate for a missing person.
We're far...excuse me...we're faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being competitive raidwise, but we don't care.