Random Query: The Trinity System

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Trinity?

I thought we were all flavored DPS these days.

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http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...myself-sad.gif

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

While the trinity isn't perfect but it means you can have much more interesting encounters.

If you have no tank them you have to make sure bosses dont hit too hard and any damage can't be too frequent as you dont have a dedicated healer to mop up. There also can't be any type of dps check since you have to heal and tank yourself.

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the key here is active dodging. i am playing right now a game where you can dodge every attack. and one attack hits for 50% to 100% of your HP and you can heal yourself 10 times for around 20% of your max HP. you don't need any dps checks because surviving alone is the skill check. no red circles, no visible cast bar... this works fine without trinity.
but to remove the trinity FF14 they have to rework the whole game. and they sure will not do that. but what we have right now is something in beteween. you need a tank and a healer. but as a tank or healer you have nothing to do, so you are just making damage...

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Originally Posted by Defias

So the goal here is really just to have a (unlikely...but I'm trying anyways...) friendly discussion/musing on the Trinity System in this game.

Simply put:
Do you believe FFXIV should keep the Trinity System?
Or
Should it adopt the model where every class is self-sufficient?

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Personally I dislike the Trinity system as it is right now, but I also dont think every class should be "Self-sufficient" as this is an MMO, not a single player game.
Ive discussed this sooo many times with my husband I've lost count. I think the trinity system should be ...expanded.

Some (maybe not all) classes could be hybridized to fill 2 roles in the DF system. For example...
A Tanks could also be a DPS if given some abilities that would make their DPS on par with other DPS.. (Obviously while a tank is employing a DPS role, their tanking ability should be limited. So if a tank was filling the DPS role, that tanks' ability to tank should be affected in some way.)

We can already see this to an extent with some classes (ie: SCH/WHM with Cleric stance, and WAR with its stances) but build upon it so it can actually choose to go into DF as a DPS OR as Tank or whatever. Or SCH could become a DPS but give their fairy some magical attack capability. There are myriad ways other classes that could fill other roles if given the abilities to do so.

OR (the better method in my opinion)

Make a new addition to the trinity system. Add in SUPPORT specific roles as an option to the duty finder, and bring out some classes that fill SUPPORT only roles. For example Corsair/Bard/RDM in FFXI. Each of these classes brought some crowd control or support abilities to the party, but their DPS/Healing capability was much lower than that of other classes to reflect the fact that they could boost or aid the party in other ways. For example, FFXI Bard had slow and haste songs, regen songs, a poison debuff song for enemies, etc. Corsair had similar abilities and the ability to boost exp for short periods of time. RDM could fill many roles by being able to do dmg AND heal but to a lesser extent, they also had myriad debuff abilities such as Haste, Slow, Poisons, Stuns, etc. They were an all rounded class that could aid the party in many ways.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

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You act like this is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

If a support role adds a debuff then you need to tune the boss because of the debuff or it becomes too easy. Can't existing tanks have that as a cooldown? Maybe support could add some heals , well can't a healer do that.

Considering raids are 8 man it would mean losing one damage dealer so to make up for that, and more, the buffs would need to be huge.

The little support we have at the moment is more than enough. Bards songs are useful but in no way needed.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

You act like this is a bad thing.

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And the rest of the quote said why.

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Simply put:
Do you believe FFXIV should keep the Trinity System?
Or
Should it adopt the model where every class is self-sufficient?

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I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm pro-trinity, but I think they all need to be self-sufficient as well. Forcing people to play together is a bad thing. The way things are now is good, but a system I'd like even more would be the ability to have NPC assistants/mercenaries of various roles by your side at all times, and not just 1 chocobo (this is based on my lvl 5 chocobo that can't do jack s*** at ANY role, though). That way, all 3 roles can be totally focused on their role, and not be forced to hybridize just to be able to solo stuff.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

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A little complexity is fine, the issue right now is that there is no real trinity or anything everything is dps and that's why the only thing you ever need to clear anything is enough dps.

buffs / debuffs aren't really necessary like you said here

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

The little support we have at the moment is more than enough. Bards songs are useful but in no way needed.

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and I also mentioned in another thread skills like blunt arrow, legsweep shield swipe are all completely unnecessary as debuffs and only ever used as a dps increase.

Crowd control tactics don't exist either, sleep, repose, bind, heavy, etc all of which are completely worthless.

Damage mitigation isn't really necessary either which is why paladins seem to be in a pretty bad way recently and why everyones using warriors / dark knights because the only thing that really matters is DPS.

On the topic of Hybrids. I am actually against them.
As in WOW it created a situation where honestly everyone was DPS no one wanted to CC, Tank, or Heal.
Tanks and to some extent Healers are rare enough as is currently allow them the option to go pure dps and I don't even want to think about Queue times.

IMO if you're going to allow hybrids/everyone the option to DPS you might as well just let us be self-sufficient.
Atleast then you can still group/go through content.

Seeing as MMORPGs are about playing together there should be group content. Just being self-sufficient would not imo "kill" group content. But I feel it might redufe the ire and toxicity that seems to be flowing from group content.
My issues with the Trinity system is that it turns into the blame game, and folks seem/tend to dislike the role their favorite class/job is given.

That said Trinity often creates a balanced gameplay system.
I have not played GW2 (which I hear does not use the Trinity System.) I wonder how combat works there.

Blade and Soul actually have no Trinity System. As far as I know every class is a DPS-Class. Finding people for a group is much faster, because you dont need to a specific class to fill the group. There are also exceptions here, but combat is just like: "Beat the crap out of it, but beware of mechanics". I think that most classes got their own selfheals and potions.

It would be too drastic to remove the holy trinity system from FFXIV. Its ok to have fixed roles for each class, but sometimes I wished to have much more variety in each class (skill trees or something). On the other hand, its annoying to have people like "Do DMG as WHM" or "Supporter-Class sucks". At the moment, 90% of its content is still based on Damage rather than playing the actual job.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the trinity is one of the main reasons i bought this game. there are hundreds of games where i can be a DPS with some self healing tools and stuff. i am playing one right now xD

i bought FF14 because here i can play as just a healer. a healer and nothing else. at least this was the idea xD if they don't go back to the trinity soon i am out of here. just want to reach 1000 posts for some reason xP

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Don't we already have the trinity? Healer Tank and DPS?