Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

I wasn't going to post but as a iLv 200 Astro I do feel like I have a voice on this. I read the OP and I don't really see the issue. I use nocturnal 99% of the time. The 1% being 8man content with a Scholar. Nocturnal gives me so much more freedom to DPS.

I think people need to be more specific in their issues with the class.

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It doesn't matter how high your Ilvl is.
8-man content is almost everything. You don't balance a job with 4-man content. (Cause I can heal with my conjurer without problem and with no cross-class skill)
Diurnal aspect is better for dpsing and give way more freedom than Nocturnal. And you could shield=>switch diurnal before pull.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Yes, SE designed themselves in a corner with the sects. Yes, there are people having a huge issue with the sects and what they stand for. Yes, it is impossible to sate everyone. Yes, it is impossible to balance AST just like it is impossible to balance SCH/WHM to WHM/SCH (hello videogames people). No, it is not flat-out impossible to cut the huge difference that is N.AST and SCH, but you might not like the way it is done. We're already this deep, might as well toss N.AST something so it can compete while we wait for a proper overhaul. Just a sign from SE that says 'we haven't forgotten about you and we understand your issues!'.

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Even though I do believe this isn't the answer with the way AST is currently designed, I would eventually like to see a Sect swap mechanic. That way it's not a matter of picking the one sect that is more beneficial at the time (mostly Diurnal in this case), it's a matter of fluidly swapping between the two Sects to play AST effectively. This would also nip a lot of complaints about how Noct AST is useless when compared to Diurnal since you would be required to make use of both Sects.

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

I mostly agree.

WIth a whm, you could diurnal in stance dps+ hots; and switch back healer stance with nocturnal for shield and stronger heal. It would lead to a better mp management.
You could do the same with sch but it would be less efficient and you'll need to coordinate with your scholar.

At least, it would be fun cause since Monday, I'm playing noct Astro on a3s with a whm and I'm sad to not get the 5%as while I'm dpsing.

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I see where you're coming from. It's a bit of shame that level of play is above most people though.

I will admit I feel like Sects are better off without passive and just have more abilities/spells that function differently based on Sect.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Can you really compare Fairy Potency and Healer Potency directly like that? It's to my understanding that Pets do not benefit from Maim and Mend II which is a difference of 30% apples to apples.

Edited: Looks like you already scaled it down to 210 Potency to compensate, for the comparison.

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You and Sidra did make the comment already about how the potency was adjusted already to suit, but I will add that while Maim and Mend has the same name as the CNJ trait, the ACN trait does include Pet Healing and Damage.

The issue with the Fairy not healing for 300 caster potency has nothing to do with maim and mend, it was the 3.0 changes to how pet stats work (pet nerf) opposed to the 2.0 mirror the caster version of pets.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

The issue with the Fairy not healing for 300 caster potency has nothing to do with maim and mend, it was the 3.0 changes to how pet stats work (pet nerf) opposed to the 2.0 mirror the caster version of pets.

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I was just clarifying a small point in Judge_Xero's post, namely:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

It's to my understanding that Pets do not benefit from Maim and Mend II which is a difference of 30% apples to apples.

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And that Pet's healing (and damage in the case of SMN/ACN) are affected by the Maim and Mend trait.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Let's run back to 2.X scholar for a bit.

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I didn't use pre-HW/2.X comparison as there was no Astrologian to begin with. Back then, White Mage and Scholar both complimented each other perfectly to fill in each other weaknesses and strengths. But if we were to look at level 50 astrologian:
No Gravity, Malefic II, Time Dilation, Collective Unconsciousness and Celestial opposition. Just cutting out Collective Unconsciousness removes the "soil" variation (Noct) Astrologian has over Scholar. While soil is one of the last things Scholars would use on, it had it's place for progression. Which Astrologians cannot provide without Collective Unconsciousness. Then there's also the issue that the other problem remains: Sustained healing while doing other things (fairy/regen), the MP sustainability, and the MP inefficiency compared to Scholar. I believe the situation back in 2.X with Astrologian wouldn't be too different from what it is now.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

And why not? It wouldn't be the first time things are balanced differently for the sake of balance.

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I do not believe this would be the "correct" answer. Although I do not believe freely swapping between sects is the answer either, it may be the one that's least likely to cause collateral damage. Being able to swap would give Astrologian the ability to provide sustained healing through Diurnal Sect Aspected Benefic and switch back to Nocturnal Sect. This would be pretty much what they'd -need- to be able to compete in both the resource as well as GCD efficiency department. Collateral damage wouldn't only be restricted from diurnal sect astrologians complaining about nocturnal sect getting their own special abilities and/or spells. It's already quite a miracle how White Mages didn't get replaced completely when the potencies of Astrologian got increased. Simply for the fact that White Mage is more forgiving to play than Astrologian. With this in mind, even if Nocturnal Sect would become a near-carbon-copy of Scholar, unless the ability to use ED 3 times a minute becomes available, Scholars will be in a similar position as White Mage is towards Astrologian. But would more homogenisation be the answer?

To get to the point, I believe you've mentioned it yourself:

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

If we need to do things shaky to toss someone in need a bone, then do things shaky. Clearly, there has been no time for a well-thought way to fix things and it can't be done quick. Might as well do it dirty if doing it dirty allows it to be done quick.

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The issue is that Astrologian as it is cannot be balanced. It's not a simple matter of increasing potencies (again) or homogenisation among the sect specific abilities (again). Square-Enix has decided to do this twice now: Potency increases and removing sect reliance on Collective Unconsciousness. If a third time would be required, Square-Enix would need to consider the possibility of reworking Astrologian as whole or keep it like this till 4.0 and hopefully the new spells and/or abilities can salvage Nocturnal Sect.

Having the AST's unique skills (some if not all) grant additional Sect-specific effects (like NIN's poisons does with their specific oGCDs) is the only direction I can see working at present.

For example under Noct you could have CO increase the duration and potency/strength of any existing shields on the target, giving them a version of Deployment but through a different setup. As for ideas like 15% Disable in Noct but 10% in Diurnal, I'd rather see Disable keep the same % on both Sects but then grant an additional Sect-exclusive effect on top of that. Maybe something like 'increased cast time of target's next ability' in Diurnal and... can't think of anything for Nocturnal right now.

I honestly believe that AST players are overthinking this Sect issue. Some of the reasons are:

1) AST doesn't need to compete with SCH for the same reason BRD had no competition in 2.X: AST was designed with a main healer toolkit with a bit more sustained DoT DPS in relation to WHM; SCH was designed as an off-healer from the start, and I honestly believe the problem will be fixed when the next healer is launched. BRDs had no competition until MCH was launched, so that's hardly an issue;
2) Nocturnal Sect is only a problem in raids. For all the other content, it's fine; for PvP, it's king. I don't see SMN players complaining about Titan-Egi being too situational, or MNK players saying that they want Fists of Earth to be a thing, or DRG players wanting more uses to Feint. Nocturnal can work as a PvP stance or something you use in DF when mitigation is needed. For raids, some of the toolkit will not be used, but we're talking about only ONE thing - MNK has two useless stances for raid and no one cries about them;
3) In 3.2 we'll not only see the new raid tier, but we'll also see new gear and it will most likely be shared among all three healers. That will allow more combinations, since people will be able to swap jobs to see what fits best in each scenario.

Having said that, I'll back up the people who said that changing Sects would be a nice thing. I never saw much sense in not being able to do it in the first place. In my opinion, it would fix all the issues we have.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

As for ideas like 15% Disable in Noct but 10% in Diurnal, I'd rather see Disable keep the same % on both Sects but then grant an additional Sect-exclusive effect on top of that. Maybe something like 'increased cast time of target's next ability' in Diurnal and... can't think of anything for Nocturnal right now.

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It doesn't have to be Disable. They could crank up the Damage reduction of CU in Nocturnal to the same effect (and it would make more sense considering 1) how much harder it is to pull off of than Soil 2) it has the same recast as Virus).

But yeah, Sect specific stuff is the way to go. Aspected Benefic is currently well-balanced and it's a very different spell in Nocturnal and Diurnal so I don't think doing the same for most critical skills would be that far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

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SMNs can freely swap Egi in battle. MNKs can freely swap Fists in battle. ASTs can freely swap Sects in... oh wait, they can't. That's the difference. The latter two can afford to not be bothered about their skills because they never face scenarios where, depending on the other DPS they get grouped with, they're forced to use one of those said skills full time over their optimal one. Then you go onto saying that having ASTs change Sects would be a good idea, thus undoing whatever defense you were trying to make for Noct.

Also PVP is an afterthought in this game, and is generally seen as an unbalanced mess, so Noct shining there (or rather, A. Benefic) is more a testament to how broken PVP is rather than an endorsement of the Sect in itself.

Allowing nocturnal stance to be an offensive stance would help give it more use. Remove cleric stance from the astrologian and make it a unique version of cleric stance with the weaker shields and reduced mana on offensive spells. Maybe make Ben one not lose healing potency.