Rant on healers acting as a dps role

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

Okay but like i said why do i need you if you simply arent going to heal? Even for difficult content? Even when health bars are dropping under half? And you still continue to dps.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

However, having a healer backup is still important because they can provide tools that would not normally be available in a single healer situation. For example, Galvanize via Adlo to mitigate heavy tank busters that put a spike on healing requirements (or out right death at a low enough tank ilvl). A healer backup can also provide additional healing output if tanks/DPS/other healer start to derp mechanics up and you need to dig yourself out a HP hole that a single healer may not be able to alone. The second healer also generally has tools that allow you to normalize the health of the MT to make overall healing easier (WHM = Regen; SCH = Fairy; Diurnal AST = Aspected Benefic).

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Think of it this way: your group's end goal is to do as much group DPS as possible, to (in turn) kill the boss before the enrage occurs. You aren't a WHM/AST/SCH when you're a part of a raid group, you're a piece to the puzzle. If you're a WHM/AST you have really great tools to keep your group topped up, so that is your primary job. SCH, meanwhile, has great DPS abilities, shields, and a fairy. Since it can do 2/3 of those things in Cleric and only needs to come out during tank busters/raid damage for the other, a SCH's primary job is to contribute to raid DPS.

Look at tanks, for example - you have two tanks in your raid, yet how often is the OT in tank stance? Not very often, if at all. That's because his job, until he needs to tank, is to contribute to damage. You essentially have "main healers" and "off healers" in the same regard.

All that said, if the off healer is in a situation where they need to heal and they instead choose to DPS, then they aren't performing their role. "Off healer" doesn't mean you're just a DPS, you're a DPS with healing abilities that need to be utilized. So if this is what you're experiencing, I understand where you're coming from, though in that case it sounds like you're healing with a bad "off healer".

This is nothing that is required now especially more than ever you have overgeared full 210 DPS in early Savage content. No need at all to DPS if you don't want to or feel uncomfortable. If your server's end game population is forcing you, that seems pretty toxic to me.

I would suggest leaving your server and move on to better pastures as not all servers have that kind of end game mentality. You could also conversely tell people that you are newish to healing. Communicate how uncomfortable and inexperienced you are, and if the other healer is good, he will take over the main healer role and solo heal where you are lacking because trust me. I am a scholar and I've solo healed parts where the WHM is apparently supposed to solo heal (A1S first phase including both preys with lower I level than now) so it is not impossible nor is it even challenging if the Scholar is experienced.

Just communicate this more to the group you play with!

If you don't need their help at any point, don't bring a second healer. Often there are a few times during the fight where the offhealer has to help with mitigation or shielding. But if you are beyond that point and capable of solo healing, don't bring another healer.

I kind of have the opposite problem as you. When I am main healing, I like to be very clear with the SCH where I am gonna need their help at - and other than those times I expect them to be dpsing. When healing, I generally go regen > dps > come out of dps for needed AOE healing, top tank off – refresh regen > back to dpsing. This tends to let the tank get a little low, but I know they are safe. Usually I am saving a Tetra for when I come out of Cleric Stance. It infuriates me to no end when the SCH feels the tank is lower than they like and pops out of cleric stance to heal them. I think "I had this under control, we are no more alive than we would have been if you kept dpsing, cept now we've done less dps." Once a plan is set, don't heal my damn tank.

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

I dps in cleric when i dont have to heal n our party can survive. But what i dont understand is how a healer can continue to dps when their party is under half hp. And still think they're a good healer.

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Again, talk with your healing partner. You're generally not challenging the hardest tiers of Savage Alexander without being in a static, or at least knowing in some capacity the people you're with. If they refuse to change, either you change groups or you kick them out as a healer.

What you're asking for in this thread isn't "off healing" and "main healing" dynamic, what you're pining for is an answer to a terrible healer who thinks s/he is the best.

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

I dps in cleric when i dont have to heal n our party can survive. But what i dont understand is how a healer can continue to dps when their party is under half hp. And still think they're a good healer.

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This sounds like you're referring to a df situation, or even a pf where the healers don't communicate what they're comfortable doing and divide responsibilities accordingly.

Communication is key, first and foremost. I main WHM and in my static, I am capable of handling a good chunk of the healing myself, allowing our SCH to dps more. It comes from running with one another often enough to know what the other is capable of, as well as understanding the fight well enough to know when damage is coming out. In AS1 for example, there isn't a ton of outgoing AOE damage. The party doesn't have to be topped off at all times. If an AOE goes out and leaves everyone at or below half health, I know there is enough time before the next AOE where I can just cast medica 2 and let the HoTs heal the party up while focusing on my tanks. In this situation, my SCH knows me and the fight well enough to not panic and stop dpsing. If he started dropping heals where they aren't needed, we'd both end up overhealing a ton.

But that's a preformed group with access to voice communication in case I do need to ask him for help. In a DF or PF situation, if one healer is struggling to keep the party alive while the other healer doesn't bother to help, then that is something that needs to be discussed. In terms of bringing another dps instead of a healer, well, you'd need a preformed party for that anyway. Plenty of healers in duty finder, myself included, will try to dps as much as possible in easier content to make it go faster. If not enough healing is being done, they should be able to recognize this and help out. If not, and the group wipes, that's a good time to say "Hey, I don't feel comfortable solo healing this. Can you help me out a little?".

At first, I thought this was going to be another "Healers shouldn't DPS!!11" thread o_o
Luckily, that's not the case...

If this is a static/FC/LS healer that you're working with - just as Ghishlain said, communicate your thoughts/feelings with them.

It's one thing if there is an aggreeance to go in as a "primary healer" and "backup healer/DPS" (my FC and I do this when we run undersized in stuff I'm not confident in, etc - I'll go in as primary healer with an FC mate on a backup SCH or WHM that DPSes majority/aggressively - they're just there for the emergency, or if I bite the dust we don't have to all suicide >_> like T10 with 5 people.... if I get prey/wild charge and everyone's got the debuff cause we don't actually have enough people, I'm as good as dead - they can switch to healer mode, keep the tank and party alive long enough to get me up and at'em. It's hilarious because our strategy devolved into just Raising ping pong, for it to work...) - but it's something other if they're just passing the buck onto you because they don't want to pay attention or just being lazy.

I understand your feelings - I've been in that spot plenty (via DF), where I find myself the solo healer and running on hyper mode to do two people's job while with an apparent scrub group standing in -everything-, or just a hectic fight in general.... but the other healer is mentally afk or the healer seems to think they're a BLM/SMN.

If the pain is ala DF..... well, it's annoying, but if you're not an outspoken person then you're just going to have to do the best you can x_x

There's not much you can do about bad, DF'd co-healers. :/
/soothe

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

Okay but like i said why do i need you if you simply arent going to heal? Even for difficult content? Even when health bars are dropping under half? And you still continue to dps.

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You are confusing the meta for a bad co-healer. In raids and end game content, the healing is sufficient fr one healer to do the majority of the healing whilst the other dps's. When the healing required is more than one healer can handle, the cleric stance healer should drop cleric stance immediately and start healing. Those that stay in cleric stance and watch the world burn around them are just bad healers.

And for the second point, true end game content (ie hardest in the game), has dps checks that are so tight that healer dps is usually needed to succeed. So 2 healers are needed to deal with the healing, Alexander Savage is not usually solo helaed at all, as well as healer dps being required. Hense one healer in cleric stance.

One of the hardest aspects of playing a healer in this game (and an aspect many people you come across will lack) is being able to judge when you should and shouldn't be in cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

I dps in cleric when i dont have to heal n our party can survive. But what i dont understand is how a healer can continue to dps when their party is under half hp. And still think they're a good healer.

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Yep this sounds like you have been paired with a bad healer. When it works and the 2 healers are working in synch with healing and dps its amazing. When it doesnt work - like in this situation you have described - its an utter disaster. There seems to be a trend at the moment of lots of scholars who think they just dps in a fight, which is the sign of a bad healer. I have moved over from raiding on sch for 2 years and gone to ast as main, and i am telling you, some sch i have been paired with drive me nuts when it comes to not dropping clerics when needed.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

A healer who refuses to heal in general (regardless of circumstances) when require is just a bad and/or ignorant healer. That's more of "this player is terrible" versus why we have "main" and "off" healing dynamic.

There will always be bad players. It's just much easier to notice terrible healers because... people die.

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And yet I do see this attitude creeping into endgame linkshells. Some healers, if they have to step out of cleric, it's basically "wtf".

As in, the other healer might have made a mistake, or a tank might have, or a DPS might have stood in something. Either way, someone screwed up and they need to git gud/be repped.

I also see my FC teaching SCHs that they are the "off/support" healer in 8+ content should be spending the vast majority of their time in cleric. Seems that's still the general meta in endgame groups as well...

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Originally Posted by AsuraFreya

I dps in cleric when i dont have to heal n our party can survive. But what i dont understand is how a healer can continue to dps when their party is under half hp. And still think they're a good healer.

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Just like the A1S examples mentioned earlier, it's about knowing the damage output of the instance. Like you get the double AoE damage before the oppressors split and some could be at 50% or just less, but there is plenty of time for both healers to keep some DPS up and let the original casted HoTs do the rest of the healing. This actually makes for a better healer. Not only do they know the damage pattern, but they also let their HoTs get full value instead of clipping and wasting them by repeating using healing AoEs just to fulfil some life bar OCD when there is no damage coming out again for quite awhile, thus saving more MP.

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Originally Posted by Miyu20

This is nothing that is required now especially more than ever you have overgeared full 210 DPS in early Savage content. No need at all to DPS if you don't want to or feel uncomfortable. If your server's end game population is forcing you, that seems pretty toxic to me.

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If one is pugging the early savage floors in party finder, there is going to be the usual expectation of playing the roles like a typical static meta. That is let the main healer handle the bulk of the heal load, and Scholar contributing to healing in a more limited capacity (fairy cooldowns, shields where things hurt, etc) but DPS where they can. Not to mention there can still be subpar DPS in the party still leading to enrages, deaths, and what not still out there even in better gear. Basically it's all about ensuring success, if you make it to enrage, nobody wins. It's not always about being comfortable and 'I just want to heal only', it's about being the puzzle piece that ensures success.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And yet I do see this attitude creeping into endgame linkshells. Some healers, if they have to step out of cleric, it's basically "wtf".

As in, the other healer might have made a mistake, or a tank might have, or a DPS might have stood in something. Either way, someone screwed up and they need to git gud/be repped.

I also see my FC teaching SCHs that they are the "off/support" healer in 8+ content should be spending the vast majority of their time in cleric. Seems that's still the general meta in endgame groups as well...

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Yep, it is true. Although I don't mind getting out of cleric much when I'm Scholar. Mistakes happen, sometimes more damage needs to be 'corrected'. White Mage and Astro have limited one-button cooldowns and they could be on CD. So it's all fine, we know what it's like. There are some healers I can completely trust, and some that I might leave Eos out a little more than usual.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And yet I do see this attitude creeping into endgame linkshells. Some healers, if they have to step out of cleric, it's basically "wtf".

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Had this with a DF'd SCH in A3, a while back, with a party that stood in everything. I was the main healer and DPS was so low, we nearly hit enrage... with a million cascades that were filled with medica spam with our lives depending on DS/PoM/whichever was up at the time.
At the end, the SCH left a biting remark about having to drop Cleric/stop DPSing somewhere in there (not that it felt like they did, at all).
I wanted to scratch their eyes out. :|