Do the Scions or Hydealyn really care for the Warrior of Light?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On the Scions
-Hard to say. The question isn't "Do they care about us?", because they clearly do. I never said otherwise, and if someone thinks I did it's likely an inference made in error. The question is which is more important to the Scions: us as a person, or us as the Warrior of Light? There is a difference... and, going by Minfilia's pre-"sacrifice" dialogue, it's the latter. Very rarely do they ask if we're OK psychologically despite the repeated traumatic fights and incidents we go through (in fact, the "fight" bit is in the job description according to some), and while Minfilia does always greet us warmly and refer to us as her friend, she is still taking advantage of our kindness and generosity to further the Scions' aim (protecting Eorzea). We may be a Scion as well, but we're an individual with thoughts and feelings and desires, not just a tool to be thrown at whatever primal crops up. (Any difference in the Warrior of Light's attitude towards this depending on region can probably be chalked up to the Eastern collectivist societal tendencies vs. Western individualist societal tendencies.)

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Given that the Scions have a noted inability to notice if people are pushing themselves too far, I think this would ultimately come down to "If they ask us to go kill another God, would they take no for an answer?"

I mean, not "No" probably. I'd like to think we'd phrase it better, but I'm poor when it comes to social skills.

And yes, regardless of their feelings, they'd take "no" because they have very little recourse BUT to rely on our magnanimity when it comes down to it, the same way for the most part they don't have much choice but to rely on us to do the god slaying. Only other times I've heard of Primals being taken down involved the deaths and tempering of WAVES of people. Even if they do care about us more as a person, they still need to use us as a weapon.

=s WoL being the typical silent good guy. Takes abuse without complaint. Just a thanks and chump change for taking care of world endangering threats.
Hard to NOT make use of :P all things considered.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdealHero
And best... can't say no.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButThouMust

Sums up pretty much...

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Alphinaud and Tataru. Double standard.

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Let's be honest, though: when someone says "the Scions," are Alphinaud and Tataru really the first people who spring to mind? If you're going to be exacting like that, let's go with "the Archons (and to a lesser extent Minfilia) show little concern for your well-being." Regardless, most of the concern people show for you as a person comes from 3.0, after we suffered a great blow as both individuals and to the organization, and I'm willing to bet the writers took measures to redress the complaint many players had that we were being treated like a tool.

Everyone's a hypocrite with double standards. Calling my argument invalid because of that is an ad hominem attack, which is just as much a logical fallacy as constructing a narrative to fit your purpose. (Which I never intend to do. Consciously, anyway.)

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Even if they do care about us more as a person, they still need to use us as a weapon.

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And that totally made it OK to treat us like one, right?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

And that totally made it OK to treat us like one, right?

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Essentially. It's for the greater good, and in a game like this, the hero will never complain about it.

Personally, I'd love to see a quest where the Scions approach us again and we answer, "No! I'm cold, hungry, and coming down with the Ala Mhigo flu. It's going to wait a couple weeks."

Scions: "But, we need you!"

WoL: "Then make some chicken soup and take care of me a bit!"

Scions: "..."

WoL: (coughing fit)

Scions: "..."

Tartaru: "My mom has a great recipe for chicken soup!"

Minifilia: (smiles) Thank you, Tartaru.

(thinks) We have been pushing you too hard, (adventurer's name).

Y'shtola: I'll get (him/her) to bed. Rest and fluids are the best cure for Ala Mhigo flu.

--- After Y'shtola and the WoL leave the room ---

Papalymo: "I never knew (the adventurer's name) could get sick and worn out."

Yda: "Kinda reassuring, isn't it?"

Papalymo: (nods)

Minifilia: We all have our limits. It's good that we were reminded of that here rather than in battle.

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Just a few scenes showing the Scions comforting us is all it would take to show the Scions care about us as a person and as family.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

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I like this idea, and it would give some much needed humanity to the WoL besides just being the world's silent, God-given weapon.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Let's be honest, though: when someone says "the Scions," are Alphinaud and Tataru really the first people who spring to mind?

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Yes. Or at least Alphinaud does. Alongside the Archons and Minfilia. Alphinaud by this point is as much one of the 'main' Scions as Minfilia and the Archons.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If you're going to be exacting like that, let's go with "the Archons (and to a lesser extent Minfilia) show little concern for your well-being."

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Thank you, that's better.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Everyone's a hypocrite with double standards. Calling my argument invalid because of that is an ad hominem attack, which is just as much a logical fallacy as constructing a narrative to fit your purpose. (Which I never intend to do. Consciously, anyway.)

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I never said your argument was completely invalid, merely flawed. I'm big on technicalities and such, that's just how I am, unfortunately. I'm appreciative you accepted the criticism, as it makes your argument stronger.

To put a finer point on it, I disagree that the Scions don't care about us, since I include Alphinaud and Tataru as part of the Scions and I can, and have, write an entire essay on how the former has grown to care about us as a person over the course of 3.0.

I do, however, agree to an extent the Archons (and to a lesser extent Minfilia) viewed us more as a tool and a means to an end. Minfilia's comment as she left during "The Parting Glass", for example, was pretty telling.

Thank you again. I will cease this line of argument with you, and hopefully come back later with something more meaningful to contribute to the actual discussion.

To be fair with the Archons, they often show little concern for their own well being. I think if the WoL refused to face a primal they would try their best to convince you and failing that try to think up some way to organise people to take it down anyway. Primals have been slain in the past without our help. Its just very costly in lives.

Yes they care about the WoL, both as an ally and a friend, but at the same time they are all very devoted to a cause and in their minds accept that that cause will probably have a high tole. Since you chose to join them in that cause I think they automatically assume your ready to pay the same price they are willing too.

Yes the WoL is a weapon but the Scions aren't just a group of friends. If you are part of an organisation as a fighter then you are signing up to be a weapon. Its what we choose to be. They didn't force it on us (though you could argue the story did).

Do remember how upset at himself Thancred was when you ended up having to fact Ifrit alone without backup. He blamed himself a lot.

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

Essentially. It's for the greater good, and in a game like this, the hero will never complain about it.

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Major DRK spoilers, but this is the crux of my argument.

Enter "Fray," your Shadow, the you who is tired of it and does complain about it at considerable length. Yes, the DRK Soulstone was the catalyst, but all it did was draw out what was already present. Now, your Shadow doesn't explicitly name the Scions as a source of frustration or resentment, but the Quest Log for DRK 45 explicitly states the Warrior of Light is willing to abandon the Scions, the Alliance, and even forsake Hydaelyn Herself to live a peaceful and quiet life, or pursue their own goals instead of just going along with whatever the Scions want them to.

Naturally, the entire point of the DRK 30-50 line is to force the Warrior of Light to accept his / her Shadow - the part(s) of him/herself s/he doesn't like and averts his/her eyes from. It's waaaay more complicated than just bitterness and resentment, but in the interest of trying to keep this somewhat on topic, I'll leave it there unless someone asks for a more detailed explanation.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

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No harm no foul. I'm just used to people treating me like I'm an enemy because of my generally contrary stance, so I do tend to get hostile quickly and apologize if I came across that way.

Like I said though, in 2.x most people treat you as a weapon or tool. I'm willing to bet a lot of players complained about that, which is why the writers took measures to redress it in 3.0. Aside from the DRK 30-50 line we have Alphinaud learning beneath the title we're a person, Tataru's concern for us is more apparent, and Haurchefant sacrifices himself to save us just because he didn't want to see us get hurt, not because we're Y'shtola's vaunted "beacon of hope," and it's subtle but his death crushed us and then sent us into a tranquil fury that lasted until Thordan's defeat. ... I think.

Jury's still out on Thancred and Shtola, but we'll see what happens when the Warriors of Darkness trounce us. Cuz I get the feelin' they're gonna.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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From what I've seen, Thancred is the only one who pushes himself too far. The others seem to be aware of their limitations and know when not to push them.

Yes, the Scions are willing to lay down their lives in Eorzea's defense, but that is supposed to be a last measure. Their goal is supposed to be preventing the summoning of primals in the first place, since while their sustenance does eat up aether just summoning one distorts Hydaelyn's aether flow. Time and again they fail to do so, and after learning we possess the Echo and are thus immune to tempering (and also willing and able to fight, unlike Minfilia), have no qualms about throwing us at primal after primal. During the quest to go fight Tidus... err, Titan, Shtola seems more annoyed that the Company of Heroes won't just cough up their information than concerned with your safety. Sure we have a crisis to prevent, but jumping in unprepared will just get us killed... and fighting a primal is something she's likely not done before or since, so she has no room to be frustrated with the Company for actually being concerned about your well-being, survival, and success. Scary how a group of mercs understand what you're going through / going to go through more than your close friends do.

We didn't sign up to be a weapon. We signed up to be a guardian, which includes things beyond slaying phantom gods, yet that's all the Scions ever seem to call on us for. (Well, that and kicking the Garleans' collective asses whenever they act up.)

Now, I fully acknowledge and understand that sending us is the most practical solution. But... that doesn't take our feelings into account, nor does it address the trauma of going toe-to-toe with said phantom gods and staring death in the face nigh-constantly. We aren't machines, yet everyone just assumes we'll have no complaints going into life-or-death situations time and again against foes they dare not step onto the battlefield against (be it for lack of the Echo or sufficient martial prowess). Even if we're the most practical "weapon" to use, that doesn't justify treating us like one... and doing so will lead to repression and/or an eventual breakdown (see the hideybox above). Neither of those are ideal outcomes.

Never mind the fact everyone wants us to do all their daily chores, from harvesting kupo nuts to getting their cat off the roof.

I do think they care about us. Well, I'm not entirely sure about Hydaelyn as gods in RPGs have always been kind of morally grey.

However, the Scions do feel guilty about constantly sending us into danger all the time that might eventually end with our death. As previously mentioned, part of Alphinaud's character development in Heavensward is seeing us as a person rather than a weapon. I think that scene where Estinien called Alphinaud out on it before fighting Ravana was perfect, as he never really realized until that point that we are still human and we can still die, no matter how much it seems like we cheated death up until that point. He later shows concern for us over the... weird and frankly out there plan to defeat Bismarck.

This is a far cry from how his original character acted. When we first met Alphinaud, I took his line after defeating the last boss in Stone Vigil as "Thank god you didn't die. It spares me the trouble of having to find a new champion to take over." I really like how far his character has come until then, as it made me go from disliking the little brat to actually finding him to be a likable character.

Its hard to judge the other Scions since we've spent less time with them than with Alphinaud so far. If I remember right, Thancred was guilty over us having to fight Ifrit and while we survived, that didn't excuse the fact that he sent us alone on a dangerous mission.