PLD - I seem to have misplaced my DPS

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Originally Posted by Launched

PLD does enough DPS in Sword Oath. You want to do lots of damage as PLD? Go offtank, or be good enough to MT in Sword Oath.

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No, it doesn't. Let's just be completely clear. Paladin doesn't do remotely enough DPS in Sword Oath.

Unless you think that WAR out-DPSing Bards is bad (sure, I could see why you might think that despite BRD's utility since BRD is a DPS class), in which case you could nerf Fell cleave to 300 potency, remove the 5% DPS bonus from Deliverance, and prevent the use of Blood Price entirely when out of Grit. Then I suppose Sword Oath would be fine because that's how too low it is right now (~15-20%), but it would also piss off a lot of people so I think that's not likely to happen.

As tired as people might be about these threads, I honestly don't have a problem with them flooding the forum because there still hasn't been any change or public acknowledgment that the current situation is a major problem. I do have a problem with the theory of healer DPS being a suitable substitute for tank DPS even if it were true that Paladin in Shield Oath is a superior tank (it is not) or provided superior support skills (it does not. As MT it has virtually zero utility other than Veil) since tank and healer DPS are very different in terms of when they're optimal to squeeze out and tank DPS is much more reliable than healer unless you meld accuracy and have a Bard for RoD. Plus you have AST that is less optimized for DPSing than SCH and healers that just don't feel comfortable DPSing in general.

Even if it were not false that Paladin is the most defensive tank and depending on healer DPS didn't have issues, it still doesn't justify the gap in the OT stance when none of that applies.

Thou I have read a few (4-5) PLD "change Requests" idea's to balance it out the only stuff I see as a Main PLD doing non-end game crap is trouble holding Arrgo agaisnt higher geared ppl when in full Vit or against equal geared DRK/WAR's (which btw full Vit right-side I haven't done since 2.3 thanks to said problem vs overgeared ppl)

Also I'm fine with PLD's DPS being lower sorta makes sence to me (u'r gona have a lot of trouble hitting the same DMG value in RL with a 1h sword vs 2h swords/Axes unless u'r stronger than them, just 1h sword users are usually more mobile till u add that hulking Tower/kite shield to the mix) really I'd be happy if I had Dragoon/Lancer's skill "Invigorate" as a PLD, any TP gripes I might have had would be gone... till I ran out of TP after using it but that would be a Player/teamwork problem not the games.

Does PLD have a problem?... maybe but I'll leave that debate to others eather more qualified or with more "Raid" XP then me

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

Yeah, I meant that for the post above yours. Sorry for the formatting confusion.

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Please read first. I wasn't making that suggestion, I was saying I was tired of seeing it over and over along with everything else on that list.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

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I don't think anyone means to say it is enough, that's just the only suitable spot for a PLD if one is in your group unless there are 20K physical tankbusters every 20-30 seconds.

The gap between OT DPS across the three tanks is relatively small. WAR>DRK>PLD.
The gap between MT DPS across the three tanks is much different. DRK>WAR>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PLD. If it was DRK>WAR>PLD and you swapped the SE debuff with the RoH debuff, no one would bat an eye, as that would be an easily closeable gap in DPS for the PLD by supplementing their fellow tank's DPS. In fact, taking the slashing debuff from WAR and giving it to PLD instead is the single simple and intelligent suggestion that comes to mind when I think of a realistic shift to balance the tanks, at least in terms of DPS.

I have a problem with all these threads because they're extremely depressing, you see the same people spreading the same misinformation and refusing to acknowledge facts.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

Yeah, I meant that for the post above yours. Sorry for the formatting confusion.

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Np, i removed the quote, I figured it was something like that.

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

Thou I have read a few (4-5) PLD "change Requests" idea's to balance it out the only stuff I see as a Main PLD doing non-end game crap is trouble holding Arrgo agaisnt higher geared ppl when in full Vit or against equal geared DRK/WAR's (which btw full Vit right-side I haven't done since 2.3 thanks to said problem vs overgeared ppl)

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I'm also a PLD doing non-end-game content. I don't generally have aggro issues in sub-50 content, after that though, it seems like even with sync, the relative difference in ilvl of weapons can leave PLD lacking in pure aggro, early in a fight.

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Also I'm fine with PLD's DPS being lower sorta makes sence to me (u'r gona have a lot of trouble hitting the same DMG value in RL with a 1h sword vs 2h swords/Axes unless u'r stronger than them, just 1h sword users are usually more mobile till u add that hulking Tower/kite shield to the mix) really I'd be happy if I had Dragoon/Lancer's skill "Invigorate" as a PLD, any TP gripes I might have had would be gone... till I ran out of TP after using it but that would be a Player/teamwork problem not the games.

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I'd be fine with our damage the way it is if we had compensation in other areas, whether we do is debateable.

I'm using broad brush strokes here, and I'm sure others can correct or add anything I omit, but the gist of the issue is; In theory we PLD are the best mitigation tank, but in the discussions here, I've seen a lot to suggest that WAR might be better, ironically in part thanks to Awareness that seems of more use to WAR than PLD. DRK has superior mitigation against magic, and better damage, and decent enough physical damage mitigation. PLD has no specific magic damage mitigation, and physical mitigation is roughly on par with WAR.

We have our shield for blocking, but both WAR and DRK can greatly increase their parry rate. The mitigation from our shield is very nearly equalled by the enhanced Parry capability of WAR/DRK. We have parry to, but due to the way damage is evaluated, parry has the least mitigation value, and has less impact on PLD than DRK/WAR. SE nerfed shield blocking a lot coming into Heavensward, parry too has taken a hit, so our mitigation toolkit has taken a hit despite our relatively poor DPS and other mitigation that is matched by WAR.

The changes to shield swipe have made it more reliable because you can force blocks to trigger it, but it has a 15s re-use timer limiting it to 4 per minute, though 3/minute is the reality unless your timing is perfect. Before this, any block triggered Shield swipe, which was on GCD so it was possible to acheive far more swipes in a short time, so for multi target pulls, the change actually reduces both damage done and enmity gained, and may negatively impact TP conservation.

So in the end PLD is the mitigation tank who's mitigation is no better overall, but does less damage and has more TP issues. Combine that with the number of wasted cross class skills PLD has, and you have the problem. It became obvious to raiders in Alexander Savage Mode that PLD was lacking, and since then, many more people are looking at it, and seeing issues beyond MT damage.

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Does PLD have a problem?... maybe but I'll leave that debate to others eather more qualified or with more "Raid" XP then me

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This is outlined above. Personally, I'm fine doing less damage as long as that disadvantage is balance in other areas, currently itseems it's not.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

The problem with that is... It'd be another PLD thread.





They all come down to more or less the same things:

1. Let PLD block magic damage (Yoshi straight-up said "no" to this).
2. Make Clemency a clone or almost-a-clone of Equilibrium.
3. Shorten Divine Veil's recast or remove its proc requirement.
4. Let PLD use a two-handed weapon instead of a shield sometimes (wat?)
5. Make Cover physical/magical and/or increase its range.
6. Buff enmity.
7. Buff SwO damage (srsly?)
8. Buff ShO damage (okay.)
9. Make SwO/ShO Def/Del clones.
10. Give them a stack/MP mechanic (WAR/DRK clone)
11. Give RA a debuff.
12. Boost RoH's potency.
13. Screw it, just give them WAR OT/DRK MT dps.
14. Make Flash do damage (...)
etc. etc.

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15. Give them a buff that increases the damage of the group/raid for a set duration. either by buffing crit chance, or determination. Maybe Accuracy too, as that would help healers with their lack of accuracy when doing dps.

Could either be a usable buff, or an effect resulting from one of their combos.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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Well actually I don't think I added anything to the direct DPS output of PLD to copy WAR/DRK, other than Spirits Within for shield oath (since PLD DPS as MT is horrible), and tried to focus on the "mitigation" with divine veil for party and ability to surecast clemency. I also forgot to add Tempered Will as a party buff (sort of like Battle Litany) to add extra utility.
I guess the SwO/ShO change is a bit questionable, maybe if it just didn't break combos while tank swapping then that would be fairer.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Interesting suggestions, but I'm not sure that focusing on our dps is the route to go.

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Well the majority of the changes weren't direct DPS increases, and I made these changes mainly with A4S in mind, where PLD really struggles to bring utility as both MT/OT. I'm also not sure if increasing the coverage of Divine Veil to 20% on 90sec CD is too broken. Also I realized that I had accidentally had Tempered Will like a solo buff, when I had intended it to be like Battle Litany.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It has always struck me that a lot of the PLD CDs are so long compared to the other classes. For very powerful ones, like Sentinel, this makes sense. But then WAR also gets some very nice stuff on a 60s CD and... Why is Fell Cleave 500 potency when it's so easy to double or even triple? Spirits Within could definitely use the 500 potency buff, still wouldn't even compare.

Tempered Will and Divine Veil... I think their CDs seem pretty long for their effects. That said, I don't think shortening the stance CDs would really change anything because they're already instant, and the 2.5s GCD will still lock out other GCD-tied abilities until it's over.

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My aim was only to tweak MT PLD because of its very very abysmal self DPS contribution whilst MT, and fix that through a lower CD Divine Veil and Tempered Will which I mentioned in this post just above me! As such the utility compensates for self-loss DPS to increase aggregate party DPS.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

The gap between OT DPS across the three tanks is relatively small. WAR>DRK>PLD.
The gap between MT DPS across the three tanks is much different. DRK>WAR>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PLD.

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taking the slashing debuff from WAR and giving it to PLD

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This is not really correct. The DPS difference for the top numbers across Alexander Savage is greater than 15% and those are in the OT stance. This is just a fact. That is a lot for two jobs of the same role without basically mandatory utility like BRD/MCH bring. In fact, it's so much of a gap it is more than what would be added by bringing the slashing debuff to your co-tank.

Taking the slashing debuff from WAR and giving it to PLD was an idea I used to like as well, but as people have pointed out that just means you'll bring a NIN. Since DRK can cover MNK's utility already, you'll bring NIN/WAR/DRK and it won't fix anything. If anything, that would make these three jobs even more fixed since the DPS gap compared to PLD/MNK would be huge.

There is a very very easy solution that for some reason some people seem to not want to accept. Increase PLD's DPS and make their utility on par with WAR (the easiest way is to give them a DMG down debuff like both the other tanks have instead of STR since Divine Veil is pretty much equal to Defiance and Mantra). Anything else (making casts usable as MT, fixing TP for PLD/DRK, adjusting defensive cooldowns, maybe swapping Delirium and Reprisal's debuffs to give DRK OT utility, etc.) can be tweaked over time, but this would drastically fix the balance issue for PLD. It's easy and really can't go wrong.

Edit: Well, or I suppose you could give PLD BRD-level utility. A party-wide TP refresh, MP refresh, and a vulnerability up debuff. That would work as well, but has a lot more potential to go wrong and have some unintended consequence like killing Bard for some content cycle or the other. It is sort of interesting since you can then have BRD/DRG/DRK and PLD/MNK/NIN or PLD/MNK/MNK as units. Of course DF would mess that up so I don't think it's actually a good idea.

I heard of a interesting idea. What if Fight for Flight had a Warrior's Unchained buff attached to it, but also keeps it's +30% physical dmg increase buff. So while in Shield Oath you don't get the -20% dmg pentality while Fight for Flight is active of course cd timer/activation time might need to be adjusted, but interesting idea to combat Plds sheer lack of dps while in Shield Oath. I still don't think this would balance out Pld dps to be more comparable to the other tanks, but I think it would help to lessen the dps gap from Shield to Sword oath.

One simple solution either wait at 3.2 to where all tanks dmg are calculated the same or just nerf war and drk to do PLD dmg. Simple.