HQ and NQ stat gap needs to close (Both should allow max stats with materia):

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Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

She makes a good point -- you're talking about two whole stars worth of quality. Your NQ i170 tool isn't a 170, it's a freakin HQ 150. 20 item levels worth of stats because you NQ'd an item? really?

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No, she is justifying.

i170 is i170.

stats make it easier but in terms of iLevel, the NQ is still getting the same treatment.

Let me give you and example.

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

I did this with Weaver.

Our character is a mannequin. Everything is tied to gear level now. Stats are important and while it is obvious you want as much as you can get at end game, if you end up in NQ blue, you will still be capable of executing all recipes for the 60 level, even the 3 star we are eventually going to get.

In order to verify what Ksenia said is true or not, I went on to do the following experiment.
First, I tried to obtain a HQ lvl 52 mainhand tool and a NQ lvl 55 mainhand tool. However, the stats were not what Ksenia had described. As you can see from the picture below, the NQ lvl 55 tool is actually 3 Control fewer than the HQ lvl 52 mainhand tool.
http://i.imgur.com/2lF1uMq.png
In order to proceed with the experiment, I have chosen the NQ lvl 57 mainhand tool. It does have 5 more control and 10 more craftsmanship than the HQ lvl 52 tool, so I melded 5 more control to the lvl 52 tool using materia. Now the two tools have identical control levels, and can be used for comparison on quality gain per touch.

Following Ksenia's description, I have chosen a level 55 recipe - Star Sapphire
http://i.imgur.com/TbuNd2c.png

If what Ksenia said is true. Then the NQ lvl 57 hammer will give much better quality per touch since it's 2 levels above the recipe. Where as the HQ lvl 52 hammer will give much less quality per touch since it's 3 levels below the recipe.

The results are as follows:

Using HQ lvl 52 tool with melds
Total Craftsmanship = 668
Total Control = 659

Basic Touch #1 = 269
Basic Touch #2 = 320
Basic Touch #3 = 372
Basic Touch #4 = 425

CS II progress = 247


Using NQ lvl 57 tool
Craftsmanship = 678
Control = 659

Basic Touch #1 = 269
Basic Touch #2 = 320
Basic Touch #3 = 372
Basic Touch #4 = 425

CS II progress = 251

Conclusion:
Both hammers give IDENTICAL amounts of quality per touch.
I am unable to verify what Ksenia had described.
I would consider it myth BUSTED.
There is one caveat in this experiment, and that is me being level 60 while Ksenia is level 56.
However, considering the fact that we're talking about i170 on this thread here, we should safely assume everybody to be level 60 (or they won't be able to wear the i170 at all anyway).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

No, she is justifying.

i170 is i170.

stats make it easier but in terms of iLevel, the NQ is still getting the same treatment.

Let me give you and example.

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

I did this with Weaver.

Our character is a mannequin. Everything is tied to gear level now. Stats are important and while it is obvious you want as much as you can get at end game, if you end up in NQ blue, you will still be capable of executing all recipes for the 60 level, even the 3 star we are eventually going to get.

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Challenge accepted; and a pointless one at that. With this craft, I can confirm that it's strictly stats, and that you might need to reconsider the rotation that you're using:
http://i.imgur.com/UFGDw60.jpg

I crafted an Aurum Regis Texture Hammer (recipe level 60) and level 60, with an HQ level 52 main hand and a level 53 off-hand (for good measure), because according to your logic, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere near 94% quality, let alone 17% considering the 8, yes, 8 whole levels of difference, between my tools, and the level of the craft. If you think that I should try again with a level 60 belt and rings (those are the two-star green items that you see in the picture), then I can, but that invalidates your point that it's the tools' item level that are the important part.

P.S. I didn't cheat by using HQ materials; all of the materials used in that craft were normal quality.

P.S.S. I just went and tried a level 57 recipe (Titanium Battleaxe -- I don't trust my stats to do a level 60 craft) with the level 52 main hand and level 53 off-hand, using my old artisan i60 gear from level 50 (I kept it for nostalgia purposes), minus accessories and belt (I used unmelded holy cedar HQ accessories, and a holy rainbow apron HQ melded with a piety III materia for spirit bonding purposes). According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

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Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

SNIP

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LOL, we did the same thing! XD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

LOL, we did the same thing! XD

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great minds think alike ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

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As Caimie and Techno have already pointed out your statement is inaccurate. I tested this theory out during the first week of heavensward as I was one of the first insane pushing hard to max all 60 on our server. During the process we were doing wacky stuff like making HQ gear replacements while 2-3 levels under the required recipe with main and offhands which were also under optimal level. Success is purely driven by the stats of your overall gear, not by the iLevel. This has always been true for crafting as far as I've known (fairly sure this was true in beta too). Quality gains specifically are driven by your paper doll control stat listing (including any inner quiet modifiers), the difference between your level and the recipe level, the current step <condition>, and the skill chosen to use. Likewise these can be modified by certain skills to amplify the effects.

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I will admit when you posed your first comment Ksenia, one assumption I've made in my first post is that V materia won't be available at reasonable prices in patch 3.1. If V materia is available is available and doesn't cost an arm and a leg then NQ two star items could potentially be maxed out using V materia. But I would bet all the nana bears in the world that V materia prices will stay super high during 3.1 for this to be a valid consideration.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

I will admit when you posed your first comment Ksenia, one assumption I've made in my first post is that V materia won't be available at reasonable prices in patch 3.1. If V materia is available is available and doesn't cost an arm and a leg then NQ two star items could potentially be maxed out using V materia. But I would bet all the nana bears in the world that V materia prices will stay super high during 3.1 for this to be a valid consideration.

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You can't max out stats even with V materias on an HQ item :v. An NQ would come nowhere near close and would at best have the same stats as an HQ without materia (give or take 3~5 points) of the NQ was melded as much has it can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

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According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar. Still, I don't mind standing corrected and I will modify this to a degree. (I am learning here, I am not trying to be a know it all) The objectives are to figure out what I am doing.

- One thing I thought about after I logged out, if they follow pattern and so far they have, they might send us down the false requirements path they did in 2.0 and force us to HQ in order to graduate gear. (like Lucis gear) In such case, we are going to HQ, like it or not. Alternative, the turn in for lucis will void the need to HQ as long as you can HQ the tertiary items required.

- Not to seem like I'm being anal here but you just got a level 60 Aurum Regis Texture hammer 98% HQ with 52 and 53 tools and you want me to believe I 'need' HQ at level?

- My correction: The trouble is, you had enough gear at 60 to increase your gear check but I know they average and with a 52 main, 53 off hand, your average level should have tanked so yes, that puts my 'theory' to rest.

- final word from me: They already told us we won't need HW going forward. In any 4.0 expansions, we will be free to enter without requisite. As such, I don't need to focus on this content and have shifted focus on leveling alts. Rather than fixate on the BiS of the moment, I am abandoning HW to prepare for 4.00 and thank SqEnix for that. The quest wall I avoided in 2.0 is keeping me out of HW and I'm still avoiding it like a plague. It left me no other crafting content but Alt building.

TY for confirming I am just under stat. Craftsmanship high enough and I don't need HQ anything. Just enough mats to RnG my way through everything. Back to voiding HW with a quest wall, I don't need to deal with red script. I got locked out. Master III as well for that matter. Sorry if it seemed like I used you but well, I did.

Err, are people really saying that stat numbers aren't important for endgame crafting? In 2.x, there were several points of time where you needed nearly maxed melds with the best stuff just to reach the mandatory minimum requirement for the highest tier of crafting. Are you saying that you'll be able to hit the requirements for 60*** items with all NQ? I'd really like to see that... Heck, all NQ barely gets you enough for 60** right now.

With Artisan's, you could use meld NQ to max for all pieces except the chest, so it didn't matter as much if the item was NQ or HQ. HQ just let you save some money on melding. Also, the items had three material slots, so melds weren't that bad even with the NQ.

With the 60** items, you can't max some of the HQs even with all grade V materia. You certainly can't max an NQ item, which is worse than the HQ level 60 equivalent.


Someone suggested eating food to make up the difference between NQ and HQ, but I don't understand. How do you use two foods at once? I already need food to hit the minimum mandatory control requirements for 60** crafts.


It would be really nice if the penalty for failing a 60** synth, which is ultimately at the whim of RNG, was a bit less. As it stands, it's extremely steep - if you get an NQ item, it's worthless for anything except glamour, and class-specific crafter glamour isn't terribly popular. If you fail on a 60** mainhand, your only real recourse is to list it on the MB and hope someone buys it without looking closely at the stats. Or, I guess, if they want to gamble with desynth, but that's going to be a bad deal unless the tool is under a third of the price of a 60** material (and it takes 4 of those to make a tool).


Desynth isn't very good for getting your stuff back, but you can try it if you want. With Desynth, you will only get one item type back, and chances are high that it won't be the valuable one. And, you will be randomly given between 1 and the number of the item in the synth, so if you desynth an HQ BSM body, you might get 4x Astral Silk back, or you might get 1x Astral Silk, or you might get 1x Chimerical Felt.

The gear is r180 (despite being i170), so with 180 dSkill, you have a 50% chance of success with no bonuses. You can raise that if you pentameld it first with garbage materia (+25%) and eat your Tinker's Bacon (+15%), for a max desynth chance of 90%. Still worse than reclaiming would have been - same chance, except Reclaim gets everything back when it works.


In conclusion, unless SE changes something, you want to Reclaim if your final 60** synth has an HQ chance of 90% or less.



EDIT: OP, your idea of higher quality having the same stats but more meld slots is awesome. I doubt they'd ever do it, but even just HQ = +2, PQ = +3 would be great. Or even, HQ = +1 and PQ = +2. PQ doesn't need 5 to be awesome. Imagine a mainhand tool with 3 meld slots instead of 1. I'd sure love that!

Crafted won't be relevant to raids until 3.2, please look forward to it.