Why refusing customization is a fallacy

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, in FFXI, people could chose what they want. That's why jobs were discriminated.

Or you tell me that if you go in Duty Finder 4-man as a DPS and ends up with a DRK, MCH and AST, you'll kick everyone or leave ?

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Let me repost this and bold the part that you keep ignoring:

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Having unbalanced jobs is bad for everyone. It's bad for the player that likes the job because he gets shunned from most parties, and it's bad for those who don't play the job, because they get stuck with an underperforming job in duties.

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Bringing up zetas is a different story altogether. It's natural to expect that not all players will have the best of the best of gear. What you're asking for is to make jobs bad right out of the box.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Let me repost this and bold the part that you keep ignoring:

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I'm not ignoring the issue...you're just making mountains of a molehill.

It's pretty obvious now that BLM is a better DPS than BRD in every way.
So, please let me know. Do you leave a 4-man Duty where you ended up with two BRDs because they are underperforming compared to two BLMs ? This "balance' issue is not tied within a job, but includes the whole cast already.

What I'm asking for is to make jobs different to be more "fun". Besides, I'm not saying "make a spec overpowered but the other garbage", I'm saying, "it's not that big of a deal if one spec performs slightly better than another, because, apart from hardcore raiding, no content requires to be that min-maxed".

And like the Zeta, it's natural to expect that not all DPS will be optimal, pretty much like you'd expect to end up with something other than BLM and/or DRG now.

And again, balance is important for non-raid content too.

Using your BRD argument (and they're nowhere as bad as you paint them), if you had your way, not only would we have the possibility of being stuck with 2 BRDs, we could get 2 badly spec'd BRDs. People already complain about getting stuck with bad players in DF, and you want to multiply the problem several fold by telling SE to just ignore job balance.

And concerning your "fun" argument. I already addressed it earlier. Being stuck with underperforming jobs is not fun.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Using your BRD argument (and they're nowhere as bad as you paint them), if you had your way, not only would we have the possibility of being stuck with 2 BRDs, we could get 2 badly spec'd BRDs. People already complain about getting stuck with bad players in DF, and you want to multiply the problem several fold by telling SE to just ignore job balance.

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I didn't paint them "Bad", I painted them weaker DPS wise as BLMs. And, like it or not, when looking at pure numbers, it's true. And everyone seems to think that only DPS numbers are important, which is also stupid except for hardcore raid content, because who cares if it takes 15 minutes to clear a dungeon instead of 10...

There's a difference between "job balance" and "being obsessed with min-maxing". And min-maxing is only important for raids

The game is already imbalanced. You can't have that much DPS with the exact same damage output, several healers with the same healing (and damage) output and several tanks with the exact same mitigation (and damage output) - god, why are people so focused on damage output, these days ?

As for fun, let's bring BRD again, shall we. Suppose ARC had two specs, one being BRD and the other Bow Mage. Just look at all the threads, and you'll quickly realize that lots of people would chose BRD for the sake of "fun" even if the damage output is lower than a Bow Mage.

And it would quickly become a non issue, since you'll be able to clear every content with any of those specs eventually.

@OP: it doesn't matter if the "I don't want you in my group because your spec sucks" is a problem or not.
The main "issue" with specs is that it would require probably between a year or two of work, scrapping completly the current system.

Obviously, they won't do that.

The only way they could to it in a reasonable time frame would be to add a bunch of useless and uninspired passives to give the illusion of choice... and I don't think that's what you or anyone want.
So, I'm sorry but your post is completly useless since it's not doable without investing a lot of time and money while changing the habits of a lot of players (and possibly lose them as a result).

Anyway, if you just want to debate if yes or no a bad spec would make the player unable to be taken in parties or not, go ahead. But just keep in mind that it's all moot since they won't re-redo their game again for that.
If you abolutly love specs, just go find another game at this point, because they'll never come to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The main "issue" with specs is that it would require probably between a year or two of work, scrapping completly the current system.

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No, the main issue is that it is dismissed because it could create some form of discrimination.

So, in place of specs and exclusive bonus on items, we have strict vertical progression and complete homogenisation of jobs...and it's likely to continue.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The game is already imbalanced.

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Sorry, but going "the game is already unbalanced so its ok to make it much worse" isn't a good argument.

Just look at the ridiculousness of some of your arguments: "Who cares if it takes 15 minutes to clear a dungeon instead of 10?". The answer is actually "A whole lot of people care".

The problem is that this game has only one 'scenario' that is relevant: you will always have the role type you need and damage is king. There is no content with different party requirements and possibly class skills dealing with out of combat mechanics. There is no solo content challenging enough for you to need to think about your defensive capabilities if you're not a tank. There is no duo content where you can't fit the trinity roles.

An example based on an experience I had in XI: I was a samurai with a dancer sub class that allowed me to self heal with my TP. I was trying to solo some tough mobs, I can't remember for what but I did. I went into the zone carrying a katana near to my current level and started fighting. Each hit would give me some tp and then I would heal myself with that but the mobs were hitting me too hard and I died. I came back and took a look at my inventory. I had an old katana that was a multi hit katana that would rack up lots of tp per attack round. It was weak, and would do less damage than I would with my current katana overall, even if I spent all the TP I gained into special moves, and I would be dead if I spent my TP that way. But I was able to solo the mobs I was trying to kill simply because I could outlast them with all the heals at my disposal, even if it took longer. I would definitely have to use my 1st katana in a party situation but that 2nd katana is not worthless to me.

But then, you refute to me that it'd bloat the armory system. That is SE's problem not ours. Plenty of other games are able to give their plays tons and tons of inventory system without constantly making excuses despite repeated demands and requests. We ditched 1.x because it had a lot of problems, because it had many limitations that wouldnt allow the devs to do what they wanted to do. Yet here, we are, this time with probably just as many can't dos and won't dos because of self inflicted limitations. One of the excuses are even something like "we can't do something like that because...the way we set up the system, it'd be troublesome." Then why even design something like that when you already had 1.x at the back of your mind? Dev convenience over customer convenience?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

There is no content with different party requirements

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And this would be a good thing if it were true. No one likes to be excluded from content just because they don't have the right job.

Your SAM example is also a prime example of the issues with FFXI's lack of balance. You managed to work your way around the system because you had the tools for it. Several jobs wouldn't have had the problems you had, others would have it much worse.

The problem is, too many people just want to jump in and play without having to learn anything. They want to clear content by just looking up youtube, instead of learning because no one seems to have any patience anymore. They want to clear and clear NOW! Sure I get it, I don't have much time to play and I'd like to get things done as well, but it's too the point where this mentality is just sad. FF14 community, are you enjoying your mindnumbing, tunnelvision clears? If you rage after each wipe, I don't think you were having much fun in the first place. SE is at fault for making the game too grindy. I know that it's not the worst grind of MMO's, but it is by far the worst of the big named games, and we all know grind=boring, and I know grind also may = subs staying subbed, but at some point people get burned out and I believe they will lose more than they thought they'd keep.

My point? I'm all for it(You have my like), but I can see why the industry moves away from it. The simpler the game the worse it is for me, so I'll just play more single player games and/or less games in general.

Good luck to you.