Is Paladin in a Bad Spot?

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Originally Posted by Fue

This is actually false.

Savage blade has 3x multiplier
Rage of Halone has 5x multiplier

Spinning Slash & Skull Sunder have 3.5x multiplier
Power Slash & Butcher's Block have 5.5x multiplier

I think the reasoning before was that pld exclusively just used halone combo, but the difference is still there even though they now have the same amount of combo's as the rest of the tanks so not sure why its still worse.

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If that is true I stand corrected on that point.

Do you have any proof though? My ACT overlay had an enmity plug in that showed exact enmity in terms of damage but that isn't working anymore so I cannot test it. I like to see solid proof before I edit my OP.

Most of these posts complaining about PLD were just bad posts. Do people seriously want PLD to compete with WAR on DPS?

WAR is high risk high reward, which is great, if played affectively it'll land you that world first and if things aren't going smoothly it won't. PLD is the safe tank, set it and forget it. DRK being new was temporarily a higher risk on new content, it's good that it's working out. If PLD had that DPS, the other two tanks would be benched so hard--nobody wants this.

Good post.

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Originally Posted by Fue

This is actually false.

Savage blade has 3x multiplier
Rage of Halone has 5x multiplier

Spinning Slash & Skull Sunder have 3.5x multiplier
Power Slash & Butcher's Block have 5.5x multiplier

I think the reasoning before was that pld exclusively just used halone combo, but the difference is still there even though they now have the same amount of combo's as the rest of the tanks so not sure why its still worse.

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Dunno if that's true but remember that Royal Authority has Savage Blade in it. DRK and WAR alternate combos don't have any enmity modifying move in it. PLD does.

The only problem i see with paladin is the fact that people play it too defensively. Sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty, and stance dancing a paladin can be clunky. but it can be done effectively. While looking into a1 savage, came across this video, if you actually care about paladin, watch this guys play and stive to be more like him. I know I am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9R6mTyLje0

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Even in farm groups. 100 DPS is not a factor to drop any job. Also PLD CDs can be planned around to increase raid DPS.

Based on that logic people should drop monk, ninja, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCN for the sake of DRG since it does the most DPS. DRG does 200 more DPS than SMN and 300 more DPS than BRD!! Ideal set up will be WAR x2, DRG x4, any healers.

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LB charge and stat buff modifiers have to be taken into account too. Again, i'm not doubting the validity of PLD, but as fights are nailed down the risk for WAR decreases naturally with farm. So, you will see alot of groups bring double WAR when these things go on farm. Whether or not the dps difference is 50 or 500 won't matter.

Public perception will start to edge PLD out of the running in raids because in the real world when a group has an idea that one is better than the other they will go with that.

Additionally, those groups that run with a PLD and are comfortable with that will continue to do so. This is not going to happen all the time, but it will happen.

Lastly, I'm not saying they need to change PLD. IF PLD mains are happy with the way it plays then keep them that way.

Game is about fun, if PLD tank is fun for groups then that's awesome. Some groups though would have fun shaving a half a second off their times in savage... and 100 dps difference can do that.

Well we are already running double WAR for savage since it makes it easier, faster and more fun.

Stop making fights based on 1 time tank busters that happen just before every inner beast is available.

Right now PLD feels like it's in a bad spot because encounters don't deal sustained damage close to tank-buster levels that a long duration buff would shine against a burst mitigation that is available EVERY tank buster making it quite literally better than any long duration buff that you get.

Coils t1,2 and 4 were good examples of when long duration buffs were favored as it was a steady stream of high damage instead of a scripted tank buster every x minutes/seconds.

For me I don't think pld is terrible but I do have to ask, how is drk not just a better pld? They have essentially the same cooldowns except drk has an extra magic defense one, the same tanking stance, drk has more damage, better threat, and some self healing they can use as part of their normal damage routines.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Stuff.

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I do not see anywhere in my post where I mentioned tank busters happening before every IB is available or that prolonged CD durations are what makes PLD "special". What prolonged CDs offer is "easier timing" and "easier healing". Pop rampart and you're set for 20 seconds. Pop Hallowed Ground and EVERYONE is set for 10 seconds. WAR is no where close. Add the required GCD for IB and you can see you cannot tunnel vision in a fight as WAR. You CAN mistime IB (pop too early, pop too late).

Most Busters are preceded or followed by a moderately high hitter. Death Sentence had Plummet. Raven's Beak had Raven's Claw (the cleave, whatever it was called). Titan Extreme does a rock buster before mountain buster. Flatten is preceded by Flare Breath. Blinding Blade is preceded by Atma Linga. Taking these into account when timing CDs can make a huge difference.

A clear example how it is easier to time is Akh Morn in T13. PLD can mitigate ANY of the Akh Morns with HG. WAR's best attempt is the third Akh Morn. And WAR could not do Holmgang on the fourth. It just doesn't last long enough.

Another example, also from T13, was when a PLD Rampart was enough to mitigate the Flare Breath before Flatten, ALONG with Flatten and all three Flare Breahts following Flatten. WAR's Inner Beast alone doesn't. WAR actually pops IB to mitigate Flare Breath, then infuriates, pops a CD and IB again for Flatten and IB won't be up for the last 1-2 Flare Breaths. Do not neglect CD duration because some busters are one hit per x minutes/seconds.

Also if you read carefully you will see that I said "All three tanks are equally good in mitigation". With WAR pumping its EHP the highest.

Another thing is DRK has the same "theme" as PLD when it comes to major CDs. Lasting the same duration on the equivalent CDs (Rampart vs Shadowskin, Sentinel vs Shadow Wall). Why does that put PLD in a bad spot but not DRK? As a matter of fact, the short CD durations is a WAR-only "disadvantage" if anything.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

For me I don't think pld is terrible but I do have to ask, how is drk not just a better pld? They have essentially the same cooldowns except drk has an extra magic defense one, the same tanking stance, drk has more damage, better threat, and some self healing they can use as part of their normal damage routines.

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PLD has better physical mitigation than DRK. That much is clear. PLD handles magical damage better than DRK handles physical damage.

PLD is still "safer" than DRK by a bit. specially when using Hallowed Ground, which is a LOT cheesier than Living Dead.

The extra DPS is somewhere between 50~100, means NOTHING in the grand theme of things. Raid DPS is what? 7k? what's 50 gonna do to that?

Threat, while behind the other tanks, doesn't matter as long as it is ahead of all the DPS?

As I mentioned in my OP, DRK and WAR self healing make up the lack of shield (and 2% deficiency in effective healing in the WAR's case).

It is not Black and White as to who the better tank is.

I personally prefer WAR MT over both DRK and PLD. I also prefer DRK over PLD because I do not see the need for that much safety. If a repeat of T5 happens (where tank buster has a higher rate of 1 buster per 40 seconds), WAR is obviously the best MT. If a repeat of T4 or T1/Shiva (where boss gains damage stacks over time and high damage streams for prolonged periods), PLD will be the best tank. But that's a whole different story.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Why does that put PLD in a bad spot but not DRK? As a matter of fact, the short CD durations is a WAR-only "disadvantage" if anything.

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Because drk has more advantages on top of that. More damage, more threat, an extra cooldown pld doesn't get, and self heals. Don't give me clemency, if healers arn't dumb it's almost always overhealing with long cast, not to mention you have to give up even more damage to heal unlike a drk who heals while doing damage. Again I don't think pld is terrible but how is drk not just a better pld?