Dark Knight, or Paladin?

Thanks for the posts all.

ultimately I think i'll go with dark knight because, for the content I do (casual dungeoning, normal/ez mode raids), Paladin is considerably worse than Dark Knight. Way harder to hold aggro if you want to maximize damage, and the damage in both tank stances...dark knight just completely blows Paladin out of the water where it counts.

it's kind of sad how behind paladin's damage is, really ._.

Not really that bad. My only observation with PLD trailing in terms of dps is when there's a huge pull. Since DRK aoe threat deals damage, then it's just padding to their dps. DRK was given a massive enmitygain from DA Power Slash is due to the fact that you'll mostly be doing syphon strike to fuel your darkside. Think of a PLD doing nothing but riot blade to sustain their Flash spamming. That's the reason behind.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Now if MP management is not your thing, that doesn't make the DRK weaker than the other two tanks. It just means DRK is not the tank for you.

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I don't mind the concept of MP management at all. I just find the way it's implemented on the DRK kinda...clunky? I don't know how put it exactly, it just doesn't feel like it flows naturally and the MP costs for a lot of spells just seems all over the place. I mean, DA+DP eats up damn near half my MP bar for what, exactly? Grit eats up all that mana for what, exactly? That's what I mean by there not being much payoff to it. It doesn't feel like it's adding anything, it's just...there.

It just seems like they slapped arbitrarily high MP costs on everything to make you "manage" it (i.e. spam Syphon Strike forever)

PLD has the worst aggro and dps of the three tanks.
Laughable AoE.
The self heal is incredibly slow, and more a tool for OTing.
Their 180sec cd is slightly stronger (40% vs 30%)
Their RNG based mitigator is considerably weaker (60% block for 15 seconds every 180 seconds vs 30% parry/20% dodge for 20 seconds every 60 seconds).
Their potencies are quite bad.
Their ability to tank out of shield oath is quite different, cause unlike darkside or deliverence/maim, the natural emnity increases do not have any damage magnification from sword oath. Everything must come from FoF.

Most of the paladin advantages are negated or diminished in certain alex fights. So far, 2 war or 1 war 1 dark seems more ideal..

Basically--dont go PLD right now. Its actually not in a great spot.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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I'd take Bulwark over Dark Dance anyday. The dodge part on Dark Dance is absolute shit and a waste of MP, and Bulwark can actually be quite reliable for rapid physical damage chains like Bahamut Claws in T9 or things like Rapid Sever in Fractal Continuum. Dark Dance is not. 30% is too low for that. The two CDs are not even comparable because you don't use them in the same purpose at all. Dark Dance you'll pretty much just pop it when it's available or when Reprisal is available to make it proc. Bulwark will actually be used for physical tank busters often in conjunction with foresight and convalescence or when tanking a lot of mobs like A2 and it's a really great tool that makes you block almost every single hit. With Dark Dance you don't parry that much more than without it. I think most people here tend to overrate what this shitty cooldown does. It just helps a little getting Low Blow procs and Reprisal. Base block rate even with a tower shield is much higher than parry rate and Bulwark scales amazingly well with that.

PLDs potencies are not bad at all. Goring Blade is 540 (which is almost a DRG's Chaos Thrust, their most powerful move), Royal Authority 340 (Full Thrust is 360, Aeolian Edge is 320). Granted their RoH combo is only 260. But you don't need to use it that much, especially against a magic damage dealing enemy. RoH is not your bread and butter anymore. Add that Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn which are OGCD, PLDs have pretty good damage now.

Granted they have crap AoE damage and enmity.

FoF is the strongest offensive cooldown in the entire game. 30% more damage for 30sec every 90 sec is freaking HUUUUGE. It's like 33% uptime during an entire fight. Berserk is 50% more attack power (which is not exactly 50% more damage) for 20 sec every 90 sec. It's a bit more powerful but has less uptime over the fight and gives 5 sec pacification at the end which will not always be dispelled. FoF is better, that's all, and that's why PLDs don't have a Darkside/Maim equivalent.

Add that their DPS stance is the most powerful of the 3 tanks. +50 potency per auto-attack is huge considering PLD has one of the fastest auto-attacks in the game, I read somewhere that at level 50 with Dreadwyrm Blade it was equivalent to +11% damage. It varies depending on the sword you're using and its auto-attack delay, but it's always around the 10% range.

PLD is not that bad, it's still the safest of the 3 tanks, it has great utility, it still has Hallowed Ground (which is amazing), it still has the best passive mitigation, and it does quite good damage now. It still has its place in end-game raids.

PLDs are good, we love them.

WARs DPS stance shits on PLDs. Fellcleave decimation and equilibrium plus crit stats and a 5% damage buff.

Yeah obviously but I was speaking only about the pure damage addition.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

WARs DPS stance shits on PLDs. Fellcleave decimation and equilibrium plus crit stats and a 5% damage buff.

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PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

A PLD's dps mostly come from its auto-attack. SE made a good decision for that and is taking the right steps on giving us swords with faster swings. i say let the WARs get their juicy burst damage while give us faster swings which will bump our dps without changing our rotations, whatsoever. As for DRKs, just give them a way to regain TP since Blood Weapon drains TP so fast.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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This is an absolutely disingenuous way to compare classes. Both Dragoons are Ninjas have built in damage multipliers (Ninjas via poisons and futon) as well as extensive OGCD attacks that put paladin ones to shame. When you compare TANK VS TANK the potencies damage is far clearer. A Dark Knight for instance has darkside up at all times for a consistant 15% increase (vs FoF being 10% over time) and now you can start comparing potency.

Paladin Combos:
Damage: 150+200+340=690 (Royal Authority)
Damage(over time): 150+230+540=920 (Goring, every 24 seconds)
Enmity: 150+200+610
OGC:
Circle of Scorn for 250 every 25 seconds
Spirits Within: 300(Full health) every 30 seconds


Dark Knights: Values increased at the end by 5% given darkside over fof
Damage/Self Heal: 150+250+260 (No darkside Soul Eater) 660 raw---693 adjusted
Damage/Enmity: 150+220+300 =670 ----703.5 adjusted
Damage/Debuff: 150+250+280. 680 raw--714 adjusted
Even if you ignore the adjusted damage, it is clearly ahead. There is no Dark Arts Here.
But you say, Goring Blade So good? 540 for the last step of the combo is impressive. Scourge does 500 potency over time however, does not need a combo, and unlike fracture, starts at 60 tp (might as well be a combo finisher).

So hey, lets bring in OGCDs. This should be fun!.
Low Blow: 100 every 25 seconds
Plunge: 200 ever 30 seconds
Carve and Spit: 100/450 every minute
Salt the Earth: 525 every 45 seconds
Reprisal: 210 every 30 seconds with a proc

Might have missed one infact.

Next--I main Warrior (check loadstone)--you are absolutely wrong about how good berserk is. 50% attack power is better amazing compared to FoF. It absolutely does result in 1.5x damage (damage formula here; http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Formula-Thread . Attack power is the sum of that formula, and is used in things other than damage---Like your self heal from Second Wind, or the potency of your flashes. Damage only effects damage). FoF does more for damage over time, certainly, but that is not how either class actually works. Warriors will dump everything they can in that time frame, along side having access to inner release and having their maim stacks in order--Paladin has nothing like that, other than having their 2 ogcds ready to go.

Nextly--their dps stance has many--many issues. It does not magnify aggro like raw darkside or deliverence does to enmity increases (which is why both dark and war can offensively tank a1 savage and a2 savage at the moment. Paladins only can in spurts before aggro catches up on them quickly). Secondly, while math wise it is quite powerful, the proof is in the pudding. If you take a 4-6 minute parse of the three classes, they lag behind--plain and simple (ignore silly 2 or 2.5 minute parses, since they generally mean nothing).

PLD is in a bad position, basically the class right now boils down to Hallowed Ground. There is content that ignores your shield, which counts for many of your class perks, you do the least damage, clemency is too slow to generally matter. Divine Veil is nice in certain places, but hardly a deal breaker for any group.