Summing Method Confirmed, Man can Become gods. (Mild Post-HW Spoilers)

Louisoix, Ysayle and Thorden VII all reverted to their regular physical bodies before disappearing into the aether. The members of the Heaven's Ward immediately disappeared into the aether, directly from their Primal forms. What makes them different from the other three characters? Simple strength of will?

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Louisoix, Ysayle and Thorden VII all reverted to their regular physical bodies before disappearing into the aether. The members of the Heaven's Ward immediately disappeared into the aether, directly from their Primal forms. What makes them different from the other three characters? Simple strength of will?

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Perhaps the presence of another Primal, that absorbed their aether (Thordan)? It could also be that they didn't feel the need to show their bodies during the length of the fight and just left them gone at the end.

Also I think Gilgamesh summoned Enkidu using the faith method on his own, but his brain is well.. probably out of this world so to speak..

Likly force of will alone. its also possible that the heaven's ward were actually part of Thordin's Primal form and dissapeared due to the transformation being broken. (It's also likly that that the heaven's ward turned back and died off screen due to their relative unimportance compaired to Thordin) Anouther possibility is that the were not given anough Aether to exist independently. (Simmiler to Garuda's clones, they disapear when she does)

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Originally Posted by Kotori_Southburd

Also I think Gilgamesh summoned Enkidu using the faith method on his own, but his brain is well.. probably out of this world so to speak..

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Even though it's only semi-cannon at most, Enkidu is still a refrence to the Ascian Method. Wish/Prayer + Aether/Crystal=Primal Like Construct.

Enkidu also was far weaker and infinitly less dangerous than any true primals. Enkido would be what I call a psudo-primal, Being an Aetheric construct summoned via the Ascian Method that was not summoned with the intent of summoning a savior which seems to be the catalyst for corruption. (Also it was stated officially that normals ruels dont always apply due to that questline being in an alternate and independent cannon)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Summoning Method Three: The Incarnate Summon

The First Known User of this method being Louisoix Leveilleur, The Incarnate method is by far the most dangerous of the three currently discovered methods. Similar to the Ascian Method, through the use of aether one can change their own form into a idolized God like form, and effectively become a primal themselves.

Other Known Practitioners have Been Lady Ysayle Iceheart, and Thorden VII with the accompaniment of The Heaven's Ward. All of Which have made on danger blatantly clear, Just as primals and egis disappear into the aetheric stream, If one using the Incarnate Summoning Method is killed while in primal form their mortal body will disappear into the Aetheric Lifestream along with their primal form. This side effect has proven to be 100% constant as Louisoix, Ysayle, Thorden VII, and the 12 Heaven's Ward all disappeared into aether like the primals they became upon their deaths.

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This is largely incorrect I'm afraid.

It was made abundantly clear in 2.4 that Ysayle did not become Shiva but merely summoned the primal into her body. Urianger explicitly states that she must have the Echo in order to do such a thing without being tempered, and thus remaining in control of the primal's power. Thordan and the Heavens Ward are presumably the same and were likely granted the Echo by the ascians in order to facilitate it (the gifting of the Echo to the sahagin priest in 2.2 was foreshadowing for this event).

Louisoix is actually entirely different to these cases as beyond his initial attempt at calling on the Twelve he did not summon at all. He quite literally became a brand new primal. There was simply so much free aether floating in the air at Cartenau and the entire population of Eorzea was desperately calling out for anything at all to save them that the aether Louisoix was tapped into transformed him into Phoenix: his image of a primal of rebirth to save the land. In a sense Louisoix's transformation was not a deliberate choice, the aether merely responded to the collective will of thousands (if not millions) of people.

It's also wroth noting that Louisoix remained fully in control despite his transformation and deliberately released the aether he'd absorbed after felling Bahamut (which would have returned him to the lifestream if Bahamut hadn't tempered him first). If he were to be summoned now he would be like any other primal and instinctively drain the land of aether to sustain himself; he would not be Louisoix at all. With that in mind I'm actually reluctant to consider the first incarnation of Phoenix a primal since it was not a shade or hollow copy as Hraesvelgr described primals, but rather it was still the real mortal Louisoix, just supercharged on aether.

Enkidu was a primal created from just a few boxes of fire crystals, i'm sure the real primals are constructed with way more and with more fervant prayers. The fact that Gilgamesh was able to summon Enkidu by himself adds comedy to the situation because summoning takes a lottttttttt of prayer.


One interesting thing is that for EX primals to he summoned, the beasttribes used catalysts that were figurines or voodoo dolls made of bones/flesh of their own? Looking back at the EX quests, you collected these disgusting talismans that were never explained fully. I guess by sacrificing one of their own in an extremely painful way and turning that sacrificed person's remains into a talisman amplifies the Primal's power indirectly by giving the beastmen a symbol of faith. I think this may be a nod to how real world religions pray to remains of their saints. I know catholicism has a number of "relics" such as fingers of saints or other pieces/remnants of clothing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

This is largely incorrect I'm afraid.

It was made abundantly clear in 2.4 that Ysayle did not become Shiva but merely summoned the primal into her body. Urianger explicitly states that she must have the Echo in order to do such a thing without being tempered, and thus remaining in control of the primal's power. Thordan and the Heavens Ward are presumably the same and were likely granted the Echo by the ascians in order to facilitate it (the gifting of the Echo to the sahagin priest in 2.2 was foreshadowing for this event).

Louisoix is actually entirely different to these cases as beyond his initial attempt at calling on the Twelve he did not summon at all. He quite literally became a brand new primal. There was simply so much free aether floating in the air at Cartenau and the entire population of Eorzea was desperately calling out for anything at all to save them that the aether Louisoix was tapped into transformed him into Phoenix: his image of a primal of rebirth to save the land. In a sense Louisoix's transformation was not a deliberate choice, the aether merely responded to the collective will of thousands (if not millions) of people.

It's also wroth noting that Louisoix remained fully in control despite his transformation and deliberately released the aether he'd absorbed after felling Bahamut (which would have returned him to the lifestream if Bahamut hadn't tempered him first). If he were to be summoned now he would be like any other primal and instinctively drain the land of aether to sustain himself; he would not be Louisoix at all. With that in mind I'm actually reluctant to consider the first incarnation of Phoenix a primal since it was not a shade or hollow copy as Hraesvelgr described primals, but rather it was still the real mortal Louisoix, just supercharged on aether.

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I consider Louisoix's transformation to be the "Origenal" Incarnation summon. The name it's self comes from Final Fantasy 13-2 where Caius Ballad gave his life to become Chaos Bahamut and WOULD have die if not for Etro ex Machina. So, considering no one had even considered it till then, I believe the Ascians copied the idea based off of Louisoix becoming phoenix. Because if we don't count Louisoix then the method has only been used twice and both in very different methods. The Ascians taught the normal summoning method to the Meracidians AND taught the Allagan how to bind, imprison, AND control primals at the same time which is also likly what lead to the Allagan methods formation. so Per usual all things come back to these guys.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/63058202