Matriarchal societies and Keepers of the Moon

Also from a "Tribal Rite" pov a male seeker must present a potential mate/clan things they've hunted in order to be let in. Doing so shows alot of things:

A. It shows that you have skills survive on you own = not weak
B. Its a polite thing to do and shows you're not a freeloader or will steal from them

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Originally Posted by Velox

You can't look at Miqo'te life through human eyes or with human resonimg because it is a design alien to humans.

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This has been brought up before, but even the possibly-part-cat Miqo'te are considered "human" in Eorzea, so trying to use "they're not human" as the basis for an argument doesn't really work. (It's an interesting interpretation aside from that, though.)

For some reason people tend to assume a 'matriarchal' society automatically means devaluing/abuse of males. If you look to real life examples of such cultures that still exist today like the Mosuo, however, they are often more egalitarian than anything.

In regards to the mating/family habits of Moon males, I kind of see similarities between the Mosuo's 'walking marriage' tradition, with Moon males just being temporary residents in villages and mostly nomadic, instead of permanent residents with their own homes. In other words, if a female Moon likes a male that she meets, they can temporarily become a couple and then when the male overstays his welcome or decides to move on, it's considered no big deal and the sisters/aunts of the female help raise any children that result. There is no expectation of any permanent connection between a female and male, and all children are considered the responsibility of the female's side of the family.

The Mosuo, however, do not exclude males from childcare (only instead of the biological father it's older brothers/uncles who are the male role models for a child), so perhaps with Moons it's the same way and a father or male relative will stay around and help with things until a child is of a certain age. With Moons I don't think we really know if male relatives ever regularly return to their families for visits or if once they leave home they are permanent nomads. It would make sense to me, that they don't sever all ties to their mothers/sisters/aunts, because family is family and it doesn't seem natural that such bonds would stop being respected just because a male Moon grows up.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This has been brought up before, but even the possibly-part-cat Miqo'te are considered "human" in Eorzea, so trying to use "they're not human" as the basis for an argument doesn't really work. (It's an interesting interpretation aside from that, though.)

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I didn't say they weren't human. :P

I'm arguing that their way of life can not be justified using "human" (Earth) ideology. There are very few cultures that have the concept of a "breeding male" in them. Also humans have a roughly 50:50 split with male/female birthrates. For Miqo'te, biologically and genetically, polygamy would be necessary in such a society in order to keep a species from dying out.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Keeper males have their own freedoms, however they are not quite the same as females. Males are allowed to do what they want when it comes to their own lives, but it's clear the fundamental rules of family have the female in charge. Males are more or less there so family lines continue to exist (why they are referred to as "breeding males" in the one levequest). They are not there to raise the children, feed the family, or there to contribute to society other than while he is being housed (pulling his own weigh). Once the female feels enough children have been had, the male goes on his merry way to give children to another female or just live out his life.

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Originally Posted by Velox

You can't look at Miqo'te life through human eyes or with human resonimg because it is a design alien to humans. For Keepers, there is no such thing as a "father" in a child's life. In fact, children probably never know who their blood-father ever is. Part of this is due to the obscure male:female ratio of Miqo'te genetics, but part may also have to do with male personality types. Given that the few males we do know endes up as villains, it's likely males aren't genetically designed to be the "caring" type. In fact, they probably are either extremely indifferent towards their fellow Miq'te, or may even be prone to aggression (also supports why females prefer to run the family). Males may also know this and acknowledge their genetic makers that make them prone to aggressive tendencies, and voluntarily isolate themselves for the good of society.

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Nothing personal, but these are the sorts of hypotheses I'm trying to avoid in this thread. Unless genetic predispositions et al are backed up by an official source somewhere..?

You do have a point about comparisons... however, my goal with that example wasn't to draw a 1:1 to RL earth society. Besides the things you point out, we don't have fantasy magic and many other things. It was just an example to show how a female can have the ultimate authority over a household, but that doesn't necessarily detract from the male and the female may never even choose to exercise that power.

Nialle articulated it better than I did. A lot of people (like almost everyone it seems) seem to assume that 'matriarchal' = devaluing of males.

In my original post, I was just wondering if the (often extreme) devaluing of males was supported canonly. From the responses so far, it seems the answer is 'no' and males function with a high level of autonomy.

Nialle, thank you for sharing those links, and thank you to everyone else for participating and sharing your sources and thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Nothing personal, but these are the sorts of hypotheses I'm trying to avoid in this thread. Unless genetic predispositions et al are backed up by an official source somewhere..?

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The Miqo'te naming lore thread specifically states that more females are born to the race than males.

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Originally Posted by RickiFake02

The Miqo'te naming lore thread specifically states that more females are born to the race than males.

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He means genetic influences on personality.

Miqo'te aren't mindless animals, they're "human," sapient beings capable of asking "why?" That two of the three male Keepers we've met are mavericks acting in defiance of tradition, and the third is Nazha'a, it's really no wonder RPers imagine Keeper males as abused or mistreated, whatever the facts.

Unlike the U tribe, we don't have any lore-perfect Keeper males standing around to talk sex with us (because that would be awkward), so people tend to extrapolate from the examples given, which aren't pretty. (Well, some are, but not as examples.)

What Three male keepers have we met? The only two I can even recall are the one from the beat tribe quests and the Coeurl King. The Couerl King Moogle quest actually explained the lore pretty well. The males are wanderers and don't stay in one place, which is why the women pretty much run the show.

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Originally Posted by RickiFake02

What Three male keepers have we met?

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One of the NPCs from the Wanderer's Palace HM quest is a male Keeper. Only slightly more important than that nameless Crystal Brave, but his circumstances contribute to the topic at hand.

My point is: the only exploration of the role of males in Keeper society we've seen so far has been through counterexample. Maybe one day we'll get a story about a little Keeper girl meeting her dad for the first time, but until then, we've only seen crazies and rulebreakers.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

One of the NPCs from the Wanderer's Palace HM quest is a male Keeper. Only slightly more important than that nameless Crystal Brave, but his circumstances contribute to the topic at hand.

My point is: the only exploration of the role of males in Keeper society we've seen so far has been through counterexample. Maybe one day we'll get a story about a little Keeper girl meeting her dad for the first time, but until then, we've only seen crazies and rulebreakers.

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True, but I felt like the Coeurlclaw King Moogle quest still did a decent job of explaining how Keeper society is supposed to function.