Off Tank DPS - is Pld > War still a valid arguement?

if the title means "pld is greater OT than war", then id disagree. if we are talking strictly dps, then pld wins. its easy to test. put the same exact gear on, use same ilvl weapon, and get as close to the same det and crit as possible. when i did this, my pld came out on top by 7 dps in sword oath, compared to war no defiance.

arguing that war benefits himself with storms eye is moot bc in any raid, youll have war/pld, so you can assume that BOTH pld war will benefit from it respectfully.

but the reason paladin usually main tanks is bc it has more op cds. war also has 2 debuffs he can rotate and not even bother with BB, while the pld just spams 123, and defiance is just easier to switch out of. besides, war is better for OTing bc this usually means picking up one or several adds. better aoe, better short bursty def cds with IB (since usually an add will get zerged down quick)

but yea, pld is more damage in sword oath than war without defiance, there was extensive testing on it and pld came out on top almost every time. ill try to go find and it link it here. if you dont believe it, go test it yourself, it will take 10 or 20 minutes out of your day to do

i think optimally, its better dps to MT war, and ot pld. war can use unchained every so often and completely ignore the dmg penalty. if you dont want to do this, at the very least its nice to have the war pull first. this way he can berserk unchained, while the pld starts in sword oath with fight or flight, as opposed to FOF in shield. itd be a small increase over the whole fight, but hey, why not

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

those proper tests were they on Jaggedy-Eared Jack and Leaping Lizzy?

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Equal gear on both classes on either a combat dummy or a raid with few variables (very high up time on the boss) where Sword Oath was verified to have been picked up by the parser.

They are about equal with slashing Debuff. (makes the PLD dependent on a WAR or NIN)

In terms of shear DPS numbers:
WAR MT + PLD OT > WAR MT + WAR OT >>>> PLD MT + WAR OT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLD MT + PLD OT

Sir Taint nailed it above.

PLD OT is better because WAR MT is miles ahead of PLD MT in DPS.

The DPS gain of having WAR in the MT slot is higher than the DPS loss (if you call it that, its probably even) of having a PLD OT.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

They are about equal with slashing Debuff. (makes the PLD dependent on a WAR or NIN)

In terms of shear DPS numbers:
WAR MT + PLD OT > WAR MT + WAR OT >>>> PLD MT + WAR OT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLD MT + PLD OT

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Mostly correct. However ...

Sword PLD MT + WAR OT >> WAR MT + PLD OT > WAR MT + WAR OT > Shield PLD MT + WAR MT

Sword Oath PLD MT is really the best way to do two tank fights in general if you can get away with it. So many advantages to having WAR OT in this situation ... perma-SP + SE, no aggro issues, and PLD has all the tools he needs for mitigation except for Shield Oath, which when overgeared and with Storm's Path, and the right CDs, is MUCH less risky (and less healer intensive) than you'd think. The fights you can't get away with it, generally you'll want PLD Shield Oath MT to maximize SCH DPS and survivability simultaneously, which in my experience is more total DPS than WAR MT PLD OT.

WAR does more DPS while in defiance versus a PLD in shield oath.

When tanks are OTing, PLD sword oath DPS beats WAR defiance-off DPS.

The differences are fairly minimal in the OT department, but are actually quite substantial in the MT department. The primary reason why PLD is MTing T13 is due to the length of sustained high damage during a flatten.

In the end, it doesn't really matter.

@Sleigh :

Question regarding "Sword PLD MT + WAR OT" - Is that really doable with good DPS? Is it something you regularly do on difficult content? Would seem like even using DPS accessories and pretty well min-max'd you'd have some serious, serious problems holding aggro given how much more DPS a DD can pull. You don't get the 2x enmity boost without Shield Oath on so wouldn't DPS be ripping the boss off you?

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Originally Posted by dcgregorya

@Sleigh :

Question regarding "Sword PLD MT + WAR OT" - Is that really doable with good DPS? Is it something you regularly do on difficult content? Would seem like even using DPS accessories and pretty well min-max'd you'd have some serious, serious problems holding aggro given how much more DPS a DD can pull. You don't get the 2x enmity boost without Shield Oath on so wouldn't DPS be ripping the boss off you?

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Yes, it's how we do T10 and T12 entirely (minus add phase T10). There is no aggro concern, the only people who can rip off a Sword Oath tank in i90 accessories are BRD, BLM, and WAR. BRD and BLM pop Quelling, WAR does SE > SP like he should. DRG and NIN come close but it's still not enough. The DPS are certainly good, we get 3 Bennu so there's that.

Sword Oath PLD's aggro isn't that far off from Shield Oath due to the excessive increase in damage. Probably about 80% normal aggro.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Yes, it's how we do T10 and T12 entirely (minus add phase T10). There is no aggro concern, the only people who can rip off a Sword Oath tank in i90 accessories are BRD, BLM, and WAR. BRD and BLM pop Quelling, WAR does SE > SP like he should. DRG and NIN come close but it's still not enough. The DPS are certainly good, we get 3 Bennu so there's that.

Sword Oath PLD's aggro isn't that far off from Shield Oath due to the excessive increase in damage. Probably about 80% normal aggro.

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Soon i110 crafted accessories. Well it doesn't seem to worth any effort at this point, but if you have the gil and absolutely wants to min-max and push numbers, the STR accessories are going to be good for tanks.

There was one parse that I dumped a 1350DPS opener without DRG/NIN debuffs - BRD/BLM have crazy opening dumps so it would be nice for tanks to have something extra to hold off the hate lol.

Well, NIN opener (a really good NIN) is quite a bit of burst damage to deal with (it's really high, without any Quelling Strikes obviously due to the class), but once the opener is over it's fairly easy to maintain a threat lead over them.