What's in a Name? (Astrologian Ver.)

Actually, can someone explain to me what is the difference between Astrologian and Astrologer?

I've checked up dictionaries and they said an Astrologian is an Astrologer

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astrologian
Noun
(plural astrologians)

(obsolete) An astrologer.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Actually, can someone explain to me what is the difference between Astrologian and Astrologer?

I've checked up dictionaries and they said an Astrologian is an Astrologer

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That was kind of the point. That attempting to give them 2 different names would not give the same distinction as in japanese because in english they're the same, so they just stuck with the same one that already exists in the game because the people of Eorzea aren't very educated anyway, so even they wouldn't know the difference.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Actually, can someone explain to me what is the difference between Astrologian and Astrologer?

I've checked up dictionaries and they said an Astrologian is an Astrologer

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Originally Posted by Squintina

That was kind of the point. That attempting to give them 2 different names would not give the same distinction as in japanese because in english they're the same, so they just stuck with the same one that already exists in the game because the people of Eorzea aren't very educated anyway, so even they wouldn't know the difference.

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Yes yes, but what is the real world difference between the two, if any?

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

Yes yes, but what is the real world difference between the two, if any?

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If any, I'd assume it's subjective and fluid. I mean, what's the difference between terrible and terrific? Send that question through a time machine, see if they're curious about your thoughts on the difference between awful and awesome.

For the sake of argument, though? LLLLET'S GET READY TO RAMBLEEEEEEE!

Theologer, theologist, and theologian have all been used in the past in different times and places, but was there a difference in anything but style?

If you aim to pin down the difference, if any, between Astrologer, Astrologist, and Astrologian, try to answer this question: What is the difference between someone who is an (-er), an (-ist), and an (-ian)? You can try rigid syntax, saying that (-er) attaches to verbs and (-ist) attaches to nouns and (-ian) attaches to fields... but how well does that theory hold in practice? Even if you get that far, you fall into a pit of shifting semantic relationships between what you do and what you know and who you are. Are all singers vocalists? What would make either or both a musician?

I don't know much about the Japanese difference, but it looks like there's a slight not-mutually-exclusive difference between skilled and knowledgeable. Ishgardians possess the ability to read the stars to divine the future, Sharlayans possess the knowledge of the spheres required to harness their power. Which one's the Astrologian? To use a different field of study, what if Ishgardians were wonderful gardeners whereas the Sharlayans were knowledgeable horticulturalists, but both were going by the name "Botanist?"

Technique is not always academia, and I suspect that has something to do with the difference between Isghardian Astrologians(士) and Sharlayan Astrologians(師), and why they chose to keep the words pronounced the same in both languages to preserve the insanely hard to articulate nuance, even if it's quite easy to point at them and say, "THAT is not THAT!"

By the way, since we're on the topic of semantics, I'm curious about how the Japanese text differentiates Doman (Japanese) expressions from Eorzean ones. I asked because I'd just unlocked ninja (yes, yes, it took me a while, so bite me), and it occurred to me that...

(ninja questline spoiler)

when Oboro told the Warrior of Light there was probably no "Eorzean" equivalent for what they called themselves, ie, shinobi, this explanation would make sense only if you were reading the text in English (ie, Eorzean).

To players outside of Japan, anything Doman would be as exotic to them as Japanese culture and language would be in real life. That isn't the same for Japanese players. In fact, Doman "culture" would ironically be more familiar to them than "native" Eorzean mannerisms.

Am I making sense? :p

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If any, I'd assume it's subjective and fluid.

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Semantics, I see.
It was purely a question of curiosity. English is not my native language and it shows in cases like this. Many thanks for the explanation (ironically, I understand the difference between 士 and 師 a lot better, thanks to Japanese being my Major)

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

By the way, since we're on the topic of semantics, I'm curious about how the Japanese text differentiates Doman (Japanese) expressions from Eorzean ones. I asked because I'd just unlocked ninja (yes, yes, it took me a while, so bite me), and it occurred to me that...

(ninja questline spoiler)

when Oboro told the Warrior of Light there was probably no "Eorzean" equivalent for what they called themselves, ie, shinobi, this explanation would make sense only if you were reading the text in English (ie, Eorzean).

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EDIT: I tracked down the text you mentioned, both in English and in Japanese:

English:
Oboro:... so you are the rogues of whom Lady Yugiri spoke. Forgve me- we were remiss in not seeking you out Sooner. Very well. You shall Know all there is to know.
Oboro: My name is Oboro, and she is Tsubame. We hail from a village in Doma, several thousand malms across the sea. We are - ah, but pherhaps you have no word for what we are. In our own tongue, one might call us shinobi
Perimu Haurimu: Doma? The imperial Province!?

Japanese:
オボロ：あの武術、やはりユギリ様に聞いた「双剣士」か。　蛇の道は蛇・・・・　もっと早くあなた方に接触すべきであった。承知した。嘘偽りなくお話しいたそう。
オボロ：我が名はオボロ。そして彼女はツバメはと申す。我々は、東州オサード小大陸の辺境の地・・・ドマの隠れ里よりやってきた「忍び」の者。
べリム・ハウリム：ドマの隠れ里よりやってきた「忍び」・・・だって？　ガルレマール帝国に制圧されて属州にされた、あのどま！？

Translation: (by me)
Oboro: Those martial arts, you must be the "rogues" that Lady Yugiri spoke of. Snakes follow the way of the serpent*... we should have contacted you sooner. Very well. I shall tell you [who we are] without lies or falsehoods.
Oboro: My name is Oboro, and she is called Tsubame. We are "Shinobi" that come from the hidden village of Doma... from a remote region of the small eastern continent of Othard.
Perimu Haurimu: "Shinobi" from the hidden village of Doma.... you say? The same Doma that was conquered and made into a province by the Garlean Empire!?


*This is a proverb. "ja no michi ha hebi". Both 'ja' and 'hebi' are written with the character for snake (蛇). The meaning of the proverb is that people in the same occupation know each other... especially if that occupation is dishonest. "It takes a thief to know a thief", would be a good English equivalent I guess. [source: Buchanan, Daniel. 1965. Japanese Proverbs and Sayings. University of Oklahoma Press. p. 235]

**it could also be 'a' hidden village instead of 'the'. I have no idea whether they have more of them.

So... in conclusion: They put the word between quotation marks to show that it is special. Perimu repeating the sentence entirely, with quotation marks at all, shows that he might not understand the term (but he decides to be more surprised about the fact that they came from Doma).

The word isn't treated as foreign, because it isn't. It is a normal, existing, Japanese word. But, it is put between quotation marks to show that there is something special about it, indicating that the people of Eorzea do not know the term.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

Yes yes, but what is the real world difference between the two, if any?

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Astrologian is the older variant that's fallen out of favor. It makes Eorzea seem less modern by using older versions of the word.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Astrologian is the older variant that's fallen out of favor. It makes Eorzea seem less modern by using older versions of the word.

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I would be surprised if this didn't come up when discussing the different connotations the words might have to English speakers.

Chances are, if you live in an English-speaking culture, if you hear astrologian, you think "Theologian of the stars! How exciting!" but if you hear astrologer or astrologist, you think, "Like, the person who looks at my sign and says, 'you don't like being contradicted' and 'you prefer spending time with close friends?'"

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I would be surprised if this didn't come up when discussing the different connotations the words might have to English speakers.

Chances are, if you live in an English-speaking culture, if you hear astrologian, you think "Theologian of the stars! How exciting!" but if you hear astrologer or astrologist, you think, "Like, the person who looks at my sign and says, 'you don't like being contradicted' and 'you prefer spending time with close friends?'"

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As an English speaker I don't think that, my first read was "is this an engrishism?" then I checked and saw it actually was a more archaic version of the word. The intentional odd versions of words in the setting create a feel that is unique for Eorzea.

We are getting access to a Sharlayan Library? Thanks, Fern!