Warriors & Paladin MT's

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Originally Posted by Keltraeng

Let me start off by first saying I\\'m not professional world first server downs or the guy who says warriors or paladins are better at Mt then the other. However, how can a paladin call himself MT if I as a warrior can pull hate off of him with just a simple 3 skill rotation?.......................... I\\'M CONFUSED

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The classes are not meant to be identical. You are acting like PLD doesn't have a place because war can spike enmity, despite your first sentence. Yes you are confused. Most tanks in ST are scrubs anyway and I can hold hate off wars trying their hardest too. THAT pld is not ALL plds.

Warrior pulls off aggro easily for a reason. Mainly in my very opinion, it is for pulling flash mobs or adds during boss fights. Off-tank should be tanking the adds as well as damaging them pretty quickly. Doesn't mean you pull off the aggro from the MT doesn't mean you should MT the whole fight.

That's why you need to respect each classes' set of skills for as the Paladin's abilities are for pure mitigation. Ideally tanking big hitting bosses.

By the way, both can MT and OT as well. It's just that their own specific skill rotation will differ how the fight would go on.

(example)

Warrior can OT at Lev EX fight with his brutal swing. First and foremost, War has incredibly high DPS than the paladin. So killing the mobs fast would be no problem unless DPS is bad. Secondly, the DPS classes like monk has stun to follow up whenever things get worst.

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Originally Posted by Peachy

The classes are not meant to be identical. You are acting like PLD doesn't have a place because war can spike enmity, despite your first sentence. Yes you are confused. Most tanks in ST are scrubs anyway and I can hold hate off wars trying their hardest too. THAT pld is not ALL plds.

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Whoa....touchy subject dont get bent out of shape bud I play both and was just curious too know why it's so easy too pull off a pally that's all.

Thanks for all that responded I think I have enough information to move foward it's going to suck not being able to use that 300 potency ability to not pull of the paladin but it's best for the group thnks guys :)

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I think warriors Butchers Block combo builds more enmity than Paladins Rage of Halone combo because a warrior needs some cushion for when they decide to use storms eye/ storms path comboes.

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It does exactly this ^^^

However, with Defiance off it should not have been an issue.

But as other have said, it is better to start with SE and SP before throwing any BB combos out just because it will get all the buffs/debuffs out right away and will minimize emnity generated.

One other thing to take into consideration is that often PLD MT's will pop some defensive CD's right after engaging a boss and that can create a short break in their initial emnity generation, so if people are going all out right away it could potentially cause someone to rip hate away.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I did one test before the servers went down and I pegged it at about 20 DPS difference in my STR gear (i110 weapon though). Over a long enough fight it can certainly shine through, especially when many groups are or were pushing 4 Bennus in T12 by only a couple seconds.

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20 DPS seems a bit on the high side. It's only an additional 40 potency every 6 GCD (about 15s depending on SS) (SE>BB vs. SE>SP) if you completely ignore fracture. When SE>SP already does 1200 pot during that time frame, that 40 potency only represents a 3.33% increase when you're only considering those attacks alone. This ignores fracture, brutal swing and auto attacks so the % increase is even smaller (i just guesstimated 2-3%). Even if you take the 3.33% increase, a 20 DPS increase would mean you're doing 600 base DPS (unless I'm seriously derping the math somehow).

But either way, I did say that you should still pull out all the stops and use SE>BB for any real tight DPS checks where seconds can and do matter. But outside of that I don't think the benefit outweighs dropping SP. I'm assuming the OP isn't quite there yet.

I've actually had this happen to me numerous times with a pld I used to play with.
I learned, when we did the old "Switch MT" routine on various fights that I would have to count to 20 before I hit the boss, in any measure (BB or not) and even out of Defiance.

Moral of Story: Everyone has a bad day (tank or not) or not everyone is good at their job at all times. Be prepared and patient with derps.

One thing to keep in mind is that a PLD's big enmity generator doesn't apply the hate until after its (loooong) animation. While a PLD will be casting Halone on the third GCD, it'll be just before the start of the fourth before you see any change in the meters. This, I find, is the most critical time where you'll need to hold back and why so many have suggested using Fracture here, for example.

With the buff to Circle of Scorn, a decent PLD in equal gear should be able to handle whatever you do after they've finished their second combo, if not before.

When it comes to Enmity generation, WARs excel at Burst Aggro while PLDs excel at Sustained Aggro. This means:

- A WAR has massive bursts of extreme aggro generation followed by periods of lesser aggro generation. This is an ebb and flow.

- A PLD has weaker burst but relatively high aggro generation otherwise.

This means that in identically geared(and skilled) situations, a PLD should be catching up to a WAR by doing their hate combos any time a WAR is not bursting. This, of course, keeps in mind that the WAR in question is alternating between BB and at least one Storm like they should be. Constant BB will likely outthreat a PLD(unless the 5% extra damage reduction from Defiance compared to Shield Oath matters that much) but is not optimal play. WARs are expected to keep Maim up and at least one Storm to let them keep aggro with their less frequent hate combos until their next burst propels them even farther ahead. A WAR who stacks STR enough can literally just burst and then continuously keep both Storms up endlessly until the next burst. Attempting to do that without enough power, however, will result in a PLD overtaking the WAR while using Sword Oath, causing the WAR to hang up their axe in eternal shame.

To directly address the initial topic of the conversation: If a PLD steps up as MT and you do any kind of burst aggro rotation in the first bits of the fight, you're going to take it away from the PLD. Your burst is better than theirs.

Try not to just think of your skills in the terms of which one is strongest, but which ones will synergize with the others. Just spamming your Butcher's Block Combo is great and all, if you are trying be the Main Tank. However, if you are agreeing to Off Tank, then your job is no longer to generate massive quantities of enmity, but instead, to worry about the entire raid. Too many people pass off the Off Tank job as something that's minor, but it's just as important as the Main Tank. As a Warrior, your off tank capabilities FAR surpass those of a Paladin. You have two rotations that debuff your enemy, you should be using these, both of them. I'm of the notion that as the Off Tank and a Warrior (I play both), A rotation of all three cycles can't do you wrong. Doing that, you should effectively reduce your enmity generation while at the same time, really help your raid.