Nin BiS?

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

I'm still not seeing how you got the numbers you did.

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It's helpful to break it down per progression:

545 acc crafted gear w/o FCoB drops - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7U
(575 dex, 621 crit, 392 det, 414 sksp)

549 acc w/ FCoB drops/augmented magitek pre-t13 - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7Y
(644 dex, 534 crit, 389 crit, 360 sksp) *can gain 11 det with t12 ring but also drops 20 acc so meh, better to eat det food*

544 acc w/ t13 weapon - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR83
(649 dex, 470 crit, 401 det, 417 sksp) *not impressed with this set really, could probably sub some crafted stuff for better stats at the loss of a little dex*

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Originally Posted by Donjo

So, I'd propose these stat weights as a provisional measure for use in theorycrafting until solid data is acquired.

Crit: 0.250
Det: 0.332
Speed: 0.187

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Yes, that's what I was using pretty much as well. I think crit is very good for Ninja, maybe as good as det. One thing I noticed is the NIN auto-attack is really weak.. The weakest of the melee/brd auto-attacks. Depending on how det affects the auto-attacks, those crit AA are really nice (crit is nice on all attacks, but especially the auto-attacks, trick attack and raitons). Just my thoughts on it.

No recorded misses with 538 acc. Granted I'm only on p3 of t13. I haven't encountered a time in that fight where I have to attack from the front. Anything beyond that is a dps loss and could be subbed for another stat for a dps increase.

I'd go with something like this:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OBEN

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yes, that's what I was using pretty much as well. I think crit is very good for Ninja, maybe as good as det. One thing I noticed is the NIN auto-attack is really weak.. The weakest of the melee/brd auto-attacks. Depending on how det affects the auto-attacks, those crit AA are really nice (crit is nice on all attacks, but especially the auto-attacks, trick attack and raitons). Just my thoughts on it.

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Right now, I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that crit is equal to sksp, but that is probably going to change on monday with the patch. That increase to TP cost would make it not as impressive, depending on how much they increase it by, at which point I'll probably agree that it would be up almost up to det. As for the AA, I think that's because of the there 70sec buff that increases auto attack speed. The ability to hit more often often makes up for the not hitting as hard.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

Right now, I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that crit is equal to sksp, but that is probably going to change on monday with the patch. That increase to TP cost would make it not as impressive, depending on how much they increase it by, at which point I'll probably agree that it would be up almost up to det. As for the AA, I think that's because of the there 70sec buff that increases auto attack speed. The ability to hit more often often makes up for the not hitting as hard.

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It's fine if you think that, but we're just pointing out that those aren't the weights that have been determined for NIN, they are for MNK. From a conceptual standpoint, it's not logical to assume they would be the same given the different traits each job possesses. I don't know why the auto-attack is as weak as it is, monk AA is not weak despite the same skill speed boost, it's actually the majority of their damage. Another thing to consider is that skill speed does not affect auto-attack speed (one of the reasons no one likes it), so the boost provided by Huton does not stack with skill speed to increase AA frequency, only your normal GCD.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's fine if you think that, but we're just pointing out that those aren't the weights that have been determined for NIN, they are for MNK. From a conceptual standpoint, it's not logical to assume they would be the same given the different traits each job possesses. I don't know why the auto-attack is as weak as it is, monk AA is not weak despite the same skill speed boost, it's actually the majority of their damage. Another thing to consider is that skill speed does not affect auto-attack speed (one of the reasons no one likes it), so the boost provided by Huton does not stack with skill speed to increase AA frequency, only your normal GCD.

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This.

You can look at it this way. You have 4 sources of dps: gcd skills, off gcd skills, dot damage, auto attacks. Both det and crit affect the damage of all four of them. Skill speed on the other hand only affects one: gcd skills. It doesn't make your off gdc's faster since cooldown timers are fixed, it doesn't make your auto attack speed faster, it doesn't make dot's tick faster or more often. Thus, sks just scales really bad compared to crit and det and this is true for basically every physical dps job except for monk, which was explained several times in this thread why mnk is an exception (aka mnk will get a shit ton of crits anyway because of traited IR and bootshine autocrit, so stacking crit too high would be a waste compared to stacking these points into det).

That being said, sks is already the worst secondary stat for nin and I see it getting even worse post patch because of TP issues...

Minor corrections as I try to figure this out.. NIN auto-attack is not as weak as BRD (most likely due to BRDs low weapon damage), and a MNK with no buffs actually seems the weakest. I have MNK DRG and NIN equally geared for the most part, all have 570 attack power (solo), an with regular buffs/damage debuffs AA damage highest->lowest was DRG (250-270, HT and Dis) MNK (230-250, GL3 and DK) NIN (200-230 DE). I didn't get to check BRD w/ disembowel but AA was 170-200 at 564 attack power without it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Minor corrections as I try to figure this out..

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The actual damage they're hitting for doesn't matter as much as the DPS they do for auto attack. You have to remember that all auto attacks are normalized at 100 potency per 3 seconds. So your DRG and BRD will be doing attacks close to or higher than 100 potency (depending on weapon delay) every 2.8 to 3.2 seconds (maybe longer depending on the bow), whereas your NIN and MNK are doing something around 80 potency every 2 seconds or so. So if I take your NIN and DRG numbers and figure out AA DPS, DRG gets about 87.84 (assuming High Allagan) and the NIN gets approximately 95.56 (again, High Allagan and assuming Huton buff). The MNK wins hands down at 106.67 AA DPS. BRD's only hope of really catching up is Barrage, which gives an extra 6 or 8 attacks per 90 seconds. Due to the high delay on the High Allagan Bow, the math I use will only show 6 extra shots, which is a bit disadvantageous for the BRD, but whatever. If we add in a ~10% buff to the numbers you give, it becomes 190-220 (rounding for ease of use), which is 61.01 DPS without Barrage, approximately 74.68 with Barrage (nevermind that Barrage and Hawk Eye are used together).

Of course, all that math I did assumes that you had the High Allagan weapon for each class, but that's because if I just switched weapons around all willy-nilly the numbers would be useless.