Objective comparison of Mnk and Nin difficulty to play ?

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

An important thing to remember is that these nerfs will surely be minor which i think is fair. Whats not fair is that MNKs have to work so hard to stay at the top of the charts when NINs just coasts their way to the #2 spot without even trying.

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Why do you think it'll be minor? Every nerf that SE has done has significantly downed that job for at least 1 whole patch season. The melee buff was so extreme that they had to buff BLM to keep them relevant, and the Bard nerf has currently put the job in a huge slump that's going to continously grow as the gear scaling becomes more apparent. I'm calling it now: Ninja is going to be nerfed to the point where there's no valid reason to take them over a Monk. You can quote me after the 9th.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

A Badly played NIN can stay on the Heals of the Best MNKs.

An important thing to remember is that these nerfs will surely be minor which i think is fair. Whats not fair is that MNKs have to work so hard to stay at the top of the charts when NINs just coasts their way to the #2 spot without even trying.

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I just got Nin to 50 Sunday night, thanks to inheriting MNK/BRD gear he's poorly optimized 111. The dungeons and STs I ran last night after getting soldiery weapon I was top threat on every fight. I was fn up the "rotation" left and right, messing up mudras occasionally.. How was I still top threat against other NINs and MNKs and DRGs? Only 1 BLM on one fight pulled ahead. I'm on ps4 so threat bar is all I can go by most of the time.

As for difficulty, I find NIN pretty damn difficult to stay on top of, as the OP mentioned. Lot's of thought to planning ahead, moreso than MNK and DRG I think. I've been playing DRG and MNK for a while now so it's not a fair comparison to make at this point, with no muscle memory to speak of right now for the NIN rotation.. But you're right, shouldn't have been that far up there messing up like I was. Really surprised.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

As a player who has a MNK/NIN i support the nerfs. It's way too easy to deal top damage as a NIN on the same fight where a MNK is working his hardest to push his own numbers.NIN achieves almost the same DPS as a MNK however its effortless (no positionals, no loosing GL, no tp issues).

A Badly played NIN can stay on the Heals of the Best MNKs. Thats the part i have a problem with.

An important thing to remember is that these nerfs will surely be minor which i think is fair. Whats not fair is that MNKs have to work so hard to stay at the top of the charts when NINs just coasts their way to the #2 spot without even trying.

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When do you lose GL in FCOB and don't have PB as backup ? When is tp an issue when your group should organize goad and paeon around you anyway ? Are those seriously the reasons why mnk is "hard to play" ?

I get positionnals, truly i do, and i think it matches up well against jutsus handling. But GL is mostly out of your hand (just pray not to get picked twice in a row for charge in t10, no reason to lose it on t11 or 12), and tp issues are not YOUR worry, they are the ones of the ninja goading you and the brd singing, mostly. How could those be considered as "hard part of the job" ?

Edit: seriously -- how do you even lose GL in t10, 11 or 12, except if you die or get targetted by charge ? Except for t9, when was the last time the GL complaint was relevant ? turn 7 if you got unlucky with shriek, and a number of ex primals, for which you do need to plan for. But it's not as if every other fight you were going to lose GL3 10 times per fight or even risk losing it once. It doesn't take much to keep up GL3 as long as you don't have to go away from the boss: just keep hitting it while not screwing up your stances twice in a row or something. I just don't get it.

I think Monk retains it's "most skill intensive" title from when then game was new, and Ninja, being released later in the game's life seems easier by default.

Edit: Perhaps I could have been more clear.

I'm not saying Monk is hard to play. I'm saying I believe people still may feel like it is because of left over notions that is was when the game was new. Comparing to Ninja, the skill level and general familiarity with the game has risen, and thus Ninja seems easier.

I just don't agree with the above post of Probound.

I don't fine mnk hard, at all. Not saying Ninja is any harder but people over complicate mnk way too much and I'm sick of it. Positionals are not hard all they require is knowing where to execute the attack from. If you can't get down with it (which is simple) then you shouldn't be playing melee. People need to stop beefing up the false reality that mnk is hard.

While ninja may not have positionals, they have mandatory mudra casts every 20 seconds to maximize their dps which is a far easier to mess up than attaining GL3. You maintain GL3 just by going through the rotation, the only "annoying" thing about mnk is loosing GL3 when there is nothing you can do about it. Everything you mess up on nin it is completely and utterly 100% the players fault barring mudra lag and is a significant self (raiton and futon)/party (TA) dps loss.

People need to stop with the whole "mnk is harder" crap. It's been going on for far too long.

I agree with tp (takes too long to run out of tp in Comparison) adjustments and slight dps decrease (should be less than 5%) but not because mnk is "harder".

Nins should be able to Goad themselves though if tp costs are going up. I also believe that drg should be doing more damage than mnk. While they don't have as many positionals, theirs are 100% mandatory to do even "good" dps.

The issue is that NIN is too easy. Not that MNK is too hard. Your missing the point here. You cant compare the difficulty of casting a mudra every 20 seconds to having to change your position every weapon skill lol Having to deal with positionals (jumping through hoops) is something MNK/DRG get used to and it becomes 2nd nature. Is it hard ? No. But its one more thing they NEED to do.

NIN can just training dummy every fight and stack neatly with the group never putting themselves in harms way. While DRG's/MNKs get the short end of the stick. Yet.... Ninja's are topping the charts with little to no effort. Something is OP there and if you don't see it there's something wrong. The dev's see it. Thats all that matters.

Remove monk from the equation. NIN is too easy! .

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

You cant compare the difficulty of casting a mudra every 20 seconds to having to change your position every weapon skill lol

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Dude, i can. And i do. It's literally sidestepping 2 steps on the left or the right every couple of attacks. It doesn't require a PhD in positionnal attacks.

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Originally Posted by Casper

Some people have argued that nin dmg needs to be nerfed because their damage is "too easily accessible".

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People say that ninja damage is too easily accessible because the things they need to have active to do their max damage is easily applied in a single rotation. Huton doesn't need a target so it can be applied whenever needed and ninjitsu is available, and dancing edge is the final hit of a 3 hit combo (not even needed with a friendly WAR keeping Storm's Eye). Kisses are always active.

Meanwhile monks need 3 full combos to reapply GL3 which, depending on mechanics, may fall off again quickly. Having anything less than GL3 is a massive damage loss because their damage steroid is tacked on to greased lightning rather than Fist of Fire (perm 5% is nice but nothing like perm 20% from kiss).

Moving to the side and back of each boss for the corresponding attack is not hard. All it requires Is knowing where you need to be for optimum damage.

That's it... move left... or move right.... and back again (depending on where you are standing in conjunction with the boss' rear). It's that easy.

Edit:

If I miss a positional on my mnk, it's w/e my dps dropped a littIe. I just try not to let it happen too often. It's only when I drop GL3 that I get upset, which is usually during boss jumps to invulnerability. Wait... I have PB, so I guess only when PB is down am I truly sad.

If I miss my key positional on my drg i curse the world out because my dps is tanking hard (99% of the time it's not even my fault I missed it. Boss turns, tank moves to pick up an add, someone takes hate... etc).

I mess up a mudra cast I cuss myself out because my dps is tanking and i just set my entire mudra rotation backwards by 20 seconds every single time I mess up if it was when I was supposed to Futon or Suiton. Plus I loose damage if I use kassatsu to fix my flub on the previous two since it won't be used on raiton that cycle.

Each class has its difficulties and looking at these pre 2.45 oatch.. Drg should be higher in dps than either mnk or nin.

A lot of people who don't usually roll as a MNK don't realize that you can ride that line between flank and rear - sidestepping a foot to the left and right to land all your hits correctly.

Many I've spoke to (for some reason) believe that you have to be dead center on the rear or flank or it won't be position'y enough.

So much so that I've actually been yelled at before because someone thought I wasn't even moving to land my positionals. I was just riding the line. It's right there on the screen so long as you have the targeting circles turned on, on your HUD.

Regardless, and now that I really think about the correlation, maybe some think the positionals are hard because they don't know about the line - in conjunction with the "pain" of having to memorize which position to be in at which time.

To which, none of it is hard. Easier than having to pay attention to a proc as far as I'm concerned.