How to Play: Frontlines PVP -- Important Breakdown of Mechanics

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Originally Posted by Mecan

I never said to leave out the PVE. I even stated that: [I]"Middle, despite it's pitiful net worth in points, can still be very valuable toward victory but its value comes a lot later into the match than many people think.

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Lets just stop there because its clear you cant handle any negative feedback and are trying way to hard to force your ideals on everyone.
If you really think the pve at the start is pitiful then I don't know what else to say.

The guy in the other thread hit the nail on the head,

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Actually, you spam the chat nonstop with "order macros" that are obnoxious and foolish. You cause an annoyance to veteran players and confusion to newer players. You should spend less time talking and spamming these macros and more time not being outdamaged by tanks.

THAT'S why you get hated on.

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Your idea of a perfect match is far from the best, every group there's always someone thinking they are the boss saying the same thing, whenever its followed is not only a loss, but a loss by a massive amount.

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Originally Posted by Zagam

Your idea of a perfect match is far from the best, every group there's always someone thinking they are the boss saying the same thing, whenever its followed is not only a loss, but a loss but massive amount.

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That's not my experience. Generally when people actually pay attention to the macros, macros which I spent several hours planning and creating, the team wins in a huge, massive landslide victory -- and I don't mean the type that's are cake walks. When people move where I tell them to and do what I tell them to do, we win -- easily. The problem is that there are players who back-talk, which confuses players. Unproductive people shout back "Don't listen!" -- they confuse new players. Every time I play a game with absolutely no back talk it's a beautiful game with no problem. The people who get angry at macros are very unprofessional and get offended by someone trying to organize. They take it the wrong way.

I spend most of my time observing and watching the flow of battle, everyone's HP bars, marking locations, and defending points. My team hates to defend points. I get out DPSed often when I have to be the solo-guy holding a point, fighting off 2+ people while trying to organize an effort. Each time I ask for support to defend something as simple as the main OP -- I get people lashing back saying "Don't Listen!".

People like me who put effort into PVP, have lots of experience leading and doing mass-PVP --- just came back into this game to enjoy the mass-PVP. Yes, I'm going to keep trying to command via macros. This is what I've done for years and years and years in many mass-PVP games and enjoyed wonderful victories. The people who say "Don't listen!" are the true problem.

PS:

I've seen people just SIT at spawn and never play just to spite me. Just to try and make me look like some ass because we lose. They throw the match on purpose to give me a bad name. That is toxic, cruel behavior my friend.

You need to lose the god complex and start nuking something.

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Originally Posted by Zagam

The guy in the other thread hit the nail on the head

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<3

The team that wins is the team that has superior players. It's as simple as that. And usually, the more organized premades the better. Furthermore, strong "B" teams usually bring pretty substantial victories, and they never neglect the middle. This thread could (and should) have been shortened to just the point values for everything (which have been posted before http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-of-Frontline) and/or that GamerEscape link. Everything else is opinion. "A" for effort though.

While you're "watching everything" and spamming those macros, your team is carrying you. You enjoy that. Also, I've seen you standing around in the middle of an attack chatting. As the good man stated:

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Originally Posted by Zagam

You need to lose the god complex and start nuking something.

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Nice guide on the importance of the middle area, but you left out one important detail.

Frontlines is a 3-way fight. Completely ignoring middle is setting yourselves up for 2nd place, here's why:

Over a 10-minute duration, you get 800 points for taking 3 posts.

The stronger among the two other GCs will take 2 posts and the middle, giving them 960 points. While the weaker one will eat dirt and take 3rd place.

In every definitive/ landslide victory I was in, the whole alliance had a set schedule:
30:00-28:00 Attempt to secure 3 bases
28:00-26:00 One team moves to middle (usually team B) and (also usually) takes out 2/6 drones
26:00-25:00 Attempt to secure 3 bases
25:00-23:00 One team moves to middle (usually team B) and (also usually) takes out 2/6 drones
23:00-21:00 2+ teams (usually B + half of the others or more) goes to the center to wrestle the tower +/- drones
21:00-19:00 Attempt to secure 3 bases
19:00-17:00 One team moves to middle (usually team B) and (also usually) takes out 2/6 drones
17:00-15:00 Attempt to secure 3 bases
15:00-? Secure the middle with 2+ teams (usually B + half of the others or more), unless other plans are made
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Usually A and C will creep into another region's main camp, if situations permit.

You don't need one team camped at the center to take that 560 points (with other teams involved, this usually becomes 320 points). Your faction may lose bases for a while but who cares, you're only gone for a minute or two and netted 200+ points. You can spend the rest of the time securing your 3 bases. Considering team B will periodically double the number of people of an area, this will effectively put a stop to alliances trying to consistently hold 3 bases (OP's strategy).

Lastly, the center is usually a hotbed to score points from kills. Not an easy place to successfully retreat.

Additional strategy: Focusing against one faction

More often than not, alliances are dead set on 1st place, even though we're already in for 10 minutes and behind by 500 odd points. Some calls should be made to completely ignore the 1st place faction and attempt to shut down and overtake current 2nd place to end not last. The same can be said for 1st place vs 2nd place.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

<3

The team that wins is the team that has superior players. It's as simple as that. And usually, the more organized premades the better. Furthermore, strong "B" teams usually bring pretty substantial victories, and they never neglect the middle.

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TBH I've had a couple of B teams that neglect middle but held other GC's OP's that tend to be unguarded ("middle is your god" mentality probably). Lost the boss add to them, but the accumulation of points from having 4 flags the whole match far outweighed handing the middle to them.

So from an unbiased viewpoint (I don't know this Mecan fellow, so I'm assuming it's biased opinion due to his actions in-game), his point has some merit to it. And like he stated, the middle is designed as a tie breaker. Meaning if no GC has had overwhelming captures, it's probably a good idea to abandon all you have near the end to control the middle for a 'burst' later in the game (preferably on boss, then add spawn).

Mmm no, not biased at all. Speaking from experience. I don't necessarily disagree with you either. Holding four flags is wonderful and assumes that all three groups are vastly superior to the opposition, as I said, which is ideal. I've also seen victories from having just these flag captures but there comes a point that A and C are doing so well pushing back opposition that they have plenty of time to guerrilla their nearby outposts. This leaves B to (again, not suggesting remaining at the top 24/7) be free to secure a blowout victory when the times are appropriate. Maybe I should rephrase: when there's a party in the alliance that isn't pulling its weight, a strong B group has the best influence in bringing a victory. And the overwhelming majority of the time, it does not involve neglecting middle.

The first sentence you quoted from me still applies. The team that wins has the superior players. You kind of supported that in your example of holding four flags. That's only possible if your GC at a given time has the players to do it. No amount of shouting, barking orders, complaining, or even strategy etc. is going to change the skill of your players. Winning encounters is everything.

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Originally Posted by Poringing

Lastly, the center is usually a hotbed to score points from kills. Not an easy place to successfully retreat.

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Thaaaank yooouuuu. Those killssss. None of the lovely math here accounts for decimating your opponents. I mean... not like it's... Player vs. Player or anything...

Forgive me as I gave way too much credit to my fellow PVPers. For a moment I thought they may see what I’ve put together and come to the same conclusions. But as it would seem I was wrong. What makes me say that? Well these golden little post say it all:

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“There are some people saying in Vanadrom's Thread that over 10 minutes a GC with 2 flags+Nodes will overcome a GC with 3 Flags. Well the guy who posted that made a huge Math mistake there, he said it is 800 points ( 3 flags ) against 960 ( 2 flags+nodes ).”

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And

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“The thing is, you need 1500 points, neither 800 or 960. 18.25 Minutes is what you need with 3 flags. Same amount of time 2 flags+all possible nodes until then, will yield you 1450. So he is kind of wrong, which i cant post there.. perma ban. Anyways, 3 flags > 2 flags + Nodes, since you will hit 1500 earlier than you can with 2 flags+nodes. xD”

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This sums up the mindset of what I’m dealing with here. Perhaps I’m at fault for not being clear enough, so let me now introduce something I know you all just love: more math.

Breaking it Down

Can anyone point out the fault in these players logistics? Well I can and I’ll do my best to illustrate just was that is: The Human Element.

Yes that is an enigmatic thing, but actually it’s very predictable in certain circumstances. I was under the impression that those who may read my threads would be intelligent and recall that only six objectives that can be captured and held. Now with this in mind we will also state that many Grand Companies have evolved their tactics. The game changes every day and so our conclusions on what wins must change with them. That’s said, now let’s begin.

800 vs 960 – “Simple right? Numbers are right there. He said it himself, middle and two points nets you more points!”

The secret resides in the PP/s, Points Per Second. Also to correct the post above, a team actually needs 1600 points to obtain victory.

If you say, add 2 objectives – which is 400 + the 560 you net from remaining in middle you get 960 points. Which is a generous 1.6 PP/s — correct? Perhaps, but – and here’s the huge but of this equation.

What does it matter if you have 960 points if the enemy Grand Company has 1600 within that same 15 minute range — because that’s exactly what will happen if you hold just 2 objectives and hold middle. I was under the assumption that my readers would be keenly aware of this, but I was clearly very wrong.
So why does the enemy team have 1600 points? Well as I’ve so clearly proven in-game before by timing the income flow of the enemy: 100 points are generated by an enemy Grand Company holding 3 Objectives (on average) on a minute by minute basis.

But wait, didn’t you say before that only 79.8 points are generated per minute by holding 3 points? Yes, but that’s just the points you see. There is so much more going on beyond that.

By holding middle and 2 points there is a certain element of potential Point Stagnation; a period of time where the income your Grand Company is generating in far lower than that of rival Grand Companies.

Important:

A team which purely remains in middle and doesn’t move from it once the entire game is only what we’re questioning here; I’m all for the fluid movements of a team moving in and out of middle quickly throughout the flow of the game to capitalize on capturing points, killing nodes, and killing the boss — especially killing the boss. What I do not condone is a team that refuses to do anything but camp one spot the whole match and never budge from it — this is what we’re discussing and nothing else.

Point Stagnation emerges from a team who does not openly support their allies. A team which camps middle remains in middle — they aren’t generating large amounts of Kill Income; however, many Grand Companies now choose to openly avoid middle for most of the match. They capitalize on greater numbers to score more kills and push the tug of war between 3 and 4 points.

More often than I can count, I’ve experienced games where enemies Grand Companies will identify which teams has a large sum of people in middle — then push hard on that Grand Company. This is because they recognize the lack of man power and react to it quickly.

A team in middle is a team down, meaning that you’ll get alliances pushed off points by double-alliance pushes. I’ve taken note these pushes tend to come shortly after the 27 minute mark. Said pushes also strike hard at the heart of Grand Company — their OP, which is seldom well guarded at this point in the game. When the OP is lost, no one from middle spares time to help out.

Then the team in middle often turns around and claims their Grand Company isn’t doing hard enough to defend — but let’s be realistic here, no one team can fight against two.

Let’s look at it this way: 1 team in middle means that the 2 remaining teams of a Grand Company must fight back against 4 enemy teams.

What I’ve seen lately is a popular trend that appears to be growing. Two Grand Companies ignore middle but check out which GC is holding it — then they purposely pick on that GC with two teams while splitting the 3rd team into two squads of 4. Those two squads of 4 will defend their backline and their OP, leaving the bulk to apply force on the weaker Grand Company in an effort to Spawn Camp them.

Yes Spawn Camp, a tactic I’ve seen growing and growing since last week. I’ve seen this tactic a lot as of late. I announce it on chat but the team in middle remains in middle and sacrifices the rest of their Grand Company to the god of middle.

So this popular scenario plays out, what’s happened math wise?

Well on average one enemy Grand Company is now claiming 3 to 4 objectives while the other is claiming 1 to 3. The Grand Company getting picked on is barely managing to hold 1 because they are getting swarmed by double alliances on all sides and enemy groups constantly crisscrossing their territory trying to pick up on those trickling out from the spawn point.

(Note: I'm using the results of a real game as base for this example.)

Grand Company Flames: Sends 2 Teams to Temple and 1 to Market with a fallback plan of defending Outpost if one assault fails.

Grand Company Twin Adder: Breaks up a team to check mid and respectively try to capture both enemy outposts as 1 Team goes to Manor and another Team goes to Market.

Grand Company Storm: Sends 2 teams to Manor and sends 1 team to Temple, grabbing their OP along the way.

Let’s say all goes well and Flames has 3 points, Adder has 1, and Storm has 2. For 2 minutes, then Adders picks up 2 Ops for the final minute.

Score by minute 3:

Flames: 1 Obj for 1 min + 9 Kills + 2 Obj for 2 Min = 145p
Adder: 1 Obj for 1 minute + 2 Kills + 1 Obj for 1 min + 3 Obj for 1 Min = 130p
Storm: 1 Obj for 1 min + 10 Kills + 2 Obj for 1 min + 1 Obj for 1 Min = 130p

The Flames team goes middle and clears out all the Nodes but gets little resistance, Meanwhile, their two other teams are now dealing four enemies teams overwhelming them. They only manage to hold 1 objective.

Score by minute 5:

Flames: 1 Obj for 2 min + 6 Nodes + 3 Kills =155 + 145p = 300p
Adders: 3 Obj for 2 min + 10 Kills = 130 + 130 = 260p
Storm: 2 Obj for 2 min + 7 Kills = 75 + 130 = 205p

While Flames may hold a lead, the two enemies Grand Companies are not showing any mercy. Manor sees a lot of activity between Storm & Adder – the point where Adder now sends extra support now 8 Players at Manor w/ 4 at Serpent Outpost w/ 12 Pushing Market.

Storm, desperate for some points – ignores Manor and thrusts a large force entirely at Flames seeing them as they have a team in middle and Markets keeps changing hands. With this in mind they send a light squad of 6 players to keep Manor busy and keep Storm Outpost under a light garrison of 2 players. They now push with 16 players against Flames and ignore middle entirely.

Storm quickly gathers up Temple and Flame OP respectively.

Meanwhile, more nodes spawn in middle.

By minute 8.

Flames: 1 Obj for 1 Min, 0 Obj for 2 min, 6 Nodes, 5 Kills, = 165p + 300 = 465p
Adder: 2 Obj for 1 Min, 3 Obj for 2 Min, 9 Kills = 245p + 260 = 505p
Storm: 3 Obj for 3 min, 6 Kills = 270p + 205 = 475p

In the past 3 minutes, Flames quickly dropped into 3rd place because both teams focused on them to take down their 1st place lead and exploit their lack of defensive strength.

Adder now becomes much more aggressive. They overwhelm Flame Outpost and break up a skirmish between Storm and Flame. They secure the point and push Storm back to Temple. Meanwhile they turn their focus at Flame’s spawn and begin picking up stragglers. Temple also picks off Flame stragglers. During this period Flame is absolutely devastated and are unable to regroup anywhere.

Meanwhile, Flame’s middle team kills the boss without any resistance at all and stay in middle to clean up remaining nodes. Adders, for a while, holds 4 points until Storm re-directs and takes Serpent OP instead of hitting Adders’ superior defense at Manor.

By minute 10:

Flames: 0 Obj for 2 Min, 3 Kills, 1 Boss = 215p + 465p = 680p
Adder: 4 Obj for 1 Min, 3 Obj for 1 min, 10 Kills = 250p + 505 = 755p
Storm: 2 Obj for 1 min, 3 Obj for 1 min, 8 Kills = 160p + 475 = 635p

Despite the boss being destroyed, the team in middle remains in middle and prepares for the nodes coming in the next minute. Meanwhile, the enemy teams start dying and also begin falling back to defend their own territory from crisscrossing pushes. Flames now is capable of holding 2 points of their own, but only just.

By minutes 13:

Flames: 0 Obj for 1min, 1 Obj for 1min, 2 Obj for 1min, 6 Nodes, 6 Kills = 210 + 680 = 890p
Adder: 3 Obj for 3min, 7 Kills = 275 + 755 = 1030p
Storm: 3 Obj for 1min, 2 Obj for 1 min, 1 Obj fr 1min, 3 Kills = 155 + 635 = 790p

In this scenario all middle accomplished was just barely keeping their team in a stable lead. I simplified a lot of the math by sticking to wholes (no fractions) — so this was an over-idealized situation. No points are held for exactly 60 seconds either way, it’s a constant, flexing tug of war. But in all outcomes Flames doesn’t have the significant lead. No matter how many fractions and decimal points you throw at it!

The current mind-set of many people is that they assume their team can actually hold 2 points & middle for the duration of the match. In theory it can work and likely has in some occasions depending on the skill or the tactics of enemy Grand Companies. But the Grand Companies I face tend to be very abusive against Grand Companies who send people middle. They turn the tide of war against them in an effort to counter any bonus points they may earn in middle.

This can be easily countered of course if the team in middle actually falls back to help defend the two points. If the team in middle actively moves between defense and middle, then the plan can and has indeed worked! But like I said, not every game is the same! Playing the same battle strategy over and over again doesn’t always win the game.

In Mana data center, the only strategy people use is the one I listed a couple posts back (It is superior? I guess); literally 0 variation, just raw power will determine 90% of the fight, the only variable is at the 15:00 mark which the OP has stressed on. It is indeed interesting to know that other data centers still have variable/ developing strategies. Every single frontline I'm in has 3 all factions using it as a template, adjusting minor stuff as things goes like how many people here and there, giving up certain objectives, etc.

The data center actually had a phase where people decided the center was not important and everybody stayed at the bottom taking bases. Eventually, we found out that that was a shitty strategy since if 2 GCs with all 3 alliances are at the bottom, a GCs had 2 guys on top while the rest at the bottom; you probably can guess who is going to win.

Also, spawn camping definitely guarantees you 2nd place. Up to you whether you want to do it. Ignoring the top almost guarantees you 2nd place (the only time you get first is that they forgot you exist; not happening in my data center, they attempt to slam GCs with 4 captured points). Camping the top is only viable if your alliance's other groups and win 2v3 consistently (right...).

Finally:
(As OP stated) Bases are more important. But! You need to keep the top in check, not camp it.

Nothing in life is ever perfect. Throwing 24 random people into a room and demanding perfect cooperation in the next 2 minutes is absurd. Assuming you did have 23 people on the same page as you that agreed with you, nothing ever goes according to plan. God help you when an 8 WHM party strolls up to you and slaps your flag out of your hands.

My advice, to anyone who's in this thread? Take the lead, and I don't mean take the 'bosses britches' and play armchair commander.

No. I'm talking about initiative.

Remind players about whats going on with the alliance, the party, and the duties that group is generally agreed to be responsible for. Do so POLITELY and PATIENTLY. Do not SPAM. Do NOT argue or accuse people of being incompetent or ignorant. If people start to get annoyed drop it and enjoy the round as best you can.

I've done everything wrong, and then I started to do some things right. Heck, I still do plenty wrong and I'll admit it and get back to it. Once you act like a polite human being, a pleasant stranger - people may start to listen to you.

Ask for help with an objective. Remind people when mid is going to spawn if they aren't close by. Not on B? So what, call it anyways. Thank B for stopping by to help yours out.

You're likely to run into these people again in the next few hours of PVP. If they remember you as the nice guy who was pleasant in chat, they're more willing to listen to you when you drop that critical bit of tactical info like 'We have a big enough lead to ignore mid, let's get another flag guys!' or whatever.

So that's how you can contribute to your team winning over another else playing the same job as you.