The True Nature of The Echo

Ha! I actually have screen shots of the very conversation Enkidoh posted!! Now we can have some illustration:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saikou

Orophin, I believe the grim reaper Ascian was an even cruder approximation of what they truly are.

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That's an interesting theory, but it also raises some further questions. To lay out some of the things we've seen: (sorry to get off topic from the Echo here)

- Ascians, or Paragons, approach beast tribes in a guise that isn't threatening (probably their human hosts such as Lahabrea and Elidibus) and teach the beast tribes how to summon their Primals.

- The same Ascians appear in a different form in the 1.0 story that scares the bejeezus out of the Ixal/Amal'jaa/Sylph present for a trade offering of crystals. The Ixal and Amal'jaa head for the hills while the Sylphs use their magic to hide the Adventurer and their Path Companion from the Ascian. (how are the Sylphs powerful enough to do this when the Ascians seem almost demigod status (think Hercules) from what we've seen so far? Maybe this is one of the disconnects from 1.0 to ARR)

- The Ascians in ARR only appear to the Adventurer and Minfilia (the only currently known people in Eorzea with "The Echo" even though there was a whole sect for them (Path of the Twelve) in 1.0) and the various beast tribes, mostly recently the Moogles. (and I guess soon to be the Sahagin) Elidibus claims when we gain mastery over "The Echo" that we'll be able to see their "true form". Currently they seem to inhabit other people's bodies. I wonder if their true form is more akin to the Occuria from FFXII, although with less of a "overseeing the world" aspect to them more so the "Venat inhabiting Dr. Cid's body" type.

There's just so many contradictions between 1.0 and ARR that I think some of the things they mish mashed into ARR was for convenience sake.

I would say there were a few other people with "The Echo" early on. If you recall from 1.0 there were 3 NPCs that frequently appeared as your seniors in the Path. A Green Sea Wolf Archer, a Masked Wildwood garbed in a Green Cowl, and a Miqo'te Gladiator. About the time your character joins the Scions, these 3 NPCs show back up. They had the Echo in 1.0. The problem is... you have to retrieve the bodies of the Seawolf and Elezen when you find the place after Livia's visit.

So in a way, it appears that it's not just The Adventurer and Minfillia who have the Echo, but more than several people who had it have been slaughtered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

- The Ascians in ARR only appear to the Adventurer and Minfilia (the only currently known people in Eorzea with "The Echo" even though there was a whole sect for them (Path of the Twelve) in 1.0) and the various beast tribes, mostly recently the Moogles. (and I guess soon to be the Sahagin) Elidibus claims when we gain mastery over "The Echo" that we'll be able to see their "true form". Currently they seem to inhabit other people's bodies. I wonder if their true form is more akin to the Occuria from FFXII, although with less of a "overseeing the world" aspect to them more so the "Venat inhabiting Dr. Cid's body" type.

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Maybe their form changes depending on our skill? For example:

Low skill = grim reaper, Very crude representation of an Ascian.
Medium skill = Hyur, maybe their true form is a humanoid race. We've had the Echo for awhile, and experienced lots of memories. Our bodies are getting used to the Echo, we are adapting and calibrating to it.
High skill = Masters of the echo can see an Ascian's true form. Maybe Hydaelyn can "train us" to use the Echo more efficiently allowing us to master the Echo and see the Ascians for what they are.


When we saw the reaper, we only had the echo for a short time. Our bodies haven't calibrated to it well enough yet so we get the grim reaper.

Here's a question: Ascians are invisible to people without the Echo. When the white robe dude talks to umm, you know... Tataru comes in. She can't see who you know, is talking to. He's invisible to her. When you know, says "They must be brazen to show themselves without hiding" when they run into Vesper Bay, you go into town to chase them. The villagers don't have the echo, therefore they can't see the White Robed Ascian, so it looks like he's just wondering around in plain view. He's actually invisible to them.

So, the question is, how do the beastymen see them? Either the Echo and Tempering are closer related than we thought, or Ascians can become visible to non-Echo Users.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keriaku

While keeping in mind the player-avatar distinction most video games don't generally question, this made me think. Perhaps the Echo is a form of tempering which allows us (the players) to inhabit the bodies of the characters. If you think of the character you control as an actual person once, we as players are kind of overwriting their will with our own.

I find this idea personally pretty interesting, even if the world might not ever endorse it. Imagine if every character running around used to be someone with a family and a life who might not ever have wanted to be fighting. But since having gained the Echo and having been embodied by a transcendent warrior of light (us) and are now going around gaining power and fighting throughout the realm. It makes sense to me that for us players to inhabit Eorzea something would have to go to let us in, perhaps being the mind of a single person who we take over.

This definitely puts a slightly sinister spin on what Hydaelyn does. It also has a Fal'Cie/L'Cie vibe from the FNC lore. It's a neat idea that Hydaelyn may have to called to us beyond her realm to restore balance to the world. It's also an interesting thought that perhaps the Primals are 'playing' the people they have tempered in much the same way we play our character.

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I applaud this! "Heed the crystal's call" was an instruction to the players, not the characters after all.

As an aside, I think that any character that considered that they existed before the game started is deluding themselves. There's simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I thought it was more interesting that the Paragon (Ascian) told Ifrit to "spare us" if he ran into "godless blessed" ones.

I want to know what's so special about the Echo that once we have mastery over it will grant us such clarity that Elidibus thinks we will want to live in harmony with the Ascians. Will we see them as they truly are (the 1.0 images of them looking like a grim reaper of sorts) and we will be so fearful of them that we will submit to them and their God? (that hardly seems "of one mind") Is Hydaelyn something other than a benevolent deity?

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I've been thinking about this.

Back in the sixth umbral era I believe, their existed a "group of evil mages" that spurred on the umbral era and a group led by an Archon of the destroyer which fought them. The Archon however later joined the side of the mages. I'm thinking these mages were the Ascians, the Archon may have learnt something grave enough to cause him to change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucke

Low skill = grim reaper, Very crude representation of an Ascian.
Medium skill = Hyur, maybe their true form is a humanoid race. We've had the Echo for awhile, and experienced lots of memories. Our bodies are getting used to the Echo, we are adapting and calibrating to it.
High skill = Masters of the echo can see an Ascian's true form. Maybe Hydaelyn can "train us" to use the Echo more efficiently allowing us to master the Echo and see the Ascians for what they are.

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The only reason they appear as Hyur now is because they have taken over the bodies of Hyurs. We still have no information as to why the 1.0 version (which looked way cooler) appeared as a reaper, but I doubt low-mastery of the Echo has anything to do with it. If anything, the Reaper version seems like it would be their "true form" and thus it would take us far more experience with the Echo to see it.

Tataru could not see Elidibus while presumably in a human host; but during the Escape from Castrum Centri, Alphinaud saw Lahabrea. No one else questioned this, meaning that the rest of the Scions, Cid, Biggs, Wedge, and Tataru most likely saw him as well. (Especially considering who he has possessed. you would think that someone would have questioned it if he/she hadn't seen this.) Lahabrea has also shown himself to the beastmen, Moogles, and the Ala Mhigian youth to teach them about Summoning, and to Gaius about the Ultima Weapon. It is quite likely that the Ascians can chose when they reveal themselves, and when they are hidden to all those except with the Echo. While it is possible that the skeletal from from 1.0 may be closer to their true nature, it is also possible that they can choose the form in which they appear and their true from is still unknown if they even have one.

Getting back onto the topic of the thread though (ala, the true nature of the Echo), it should be remembered that in the changeover from 1.0 to ARR, there definitely seems to be a shift in how the Echo itself seems to function, and an example of this is a line Minfilia makes early on in ARR when you first join the Scions of the Seventh Dawn - where she laments "It is only a shame we cannot use it whensoever we choose." I rolled my eyes and shook my head at that quote because it blatantly contradicted both 1.0's narrative and gameplay where the player not only could do that very thing, they actually had to in order to continue the storyline (and the first time was on Minfilia herself too no less to demonstrate the player really could use it!).

Of course she could have also just simply used her own limited potency in the Echo as an example of the Echo in general, but considering the Archons then tell the player that their own potency in the Echo is the 'strongest they've ever seen', this just doesn't make any sense, other than simply being a narrative retcon to remove a gameplay element's connection to the storyline that no longer appears in the game (which is a shame, as I really liked how in 1.0 the player could use the Echo to access flashback scenes during quests). But I guess ARR is a reboot, so retconning the power of the Echo and how it's used is simply a part of that.

Also, how Minfilia even talks about the Echo in ARR is very much a hurried, abridged summary of her more in-depth explanation from 1.0, with a lot of crucial information missing - she seemed to be more interested in talking about the Primals rather than the strange power that was making the player blackout and have visions (and never mind the fact it was what brought the player to her in the first place!). For comparisons, here's the two versions of the same 'Echo explanation' from 1.0 and ARR:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ARR main scenario quest 'The Scions of the Seventh Dawn'

Minfilia: "Our order is home to a number of individuals who, like you, possess a rare and special talent."
Minfilia: "This talent takes various forms, but one holds particular interest for us."
Minfilia: "Tell me, have you ever experienced a sudden, inexplicable loss of consciousness?"
Minfilia: "Have you ever had the sensation of being pulled away from reality? Felt as though you were hovering in space, a mind without a body?"
Minfilia: "All these things are the manifestations of your talent. Yours is the power to transcend the boundaries of the soul - a power known as the Echo."
Minfilia: "The Echo allows you to pass through the walls of a man's soul, and hear the resonations of his past."
Minfilia: "You will be there in his memories, and see things as he saw them. You may even interact with that which you see, though you cannot change the outcome of events."
Minfilia: "For another blessing, the Echo will enable you to know a man's mind even if you cannot comprehend his words."
Minfilia: "In short, the Echo is a truly extraordinary power. And this power is strong within you."
Minfilia: "It is only a shame we cannot use it whensoever we choose."
Minfilia: "That's right. I too possess the Echo."
Minfilia: "With that established, let us return to the subject of the Primals."

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And that's it. She never mentions it again in the whole scene, nor does she elaborate on exactly how the player came by it, why the player has been granted it, or anything!

Contrast this with the 1.0 version:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 main scenario quest 'Fade to White'

Minfilia: "Ah, but I seem to have forgotten my courtesies. Please forgive me. My name is Minfilia, acting Antecedent of the Path of the Twelve."
Minfilia: "Your bemused expression tells me you have not heard of us, which is only to be expected. Ours is an underground organization dedicated to the documentation and research of divine intervention... or 'miracles' if you wish. We have walkers in each of Eorzea's city-states who investigate and report such phenomena. The young hermit who directed you here is one of many who serve as our eyes and ears."
Minfilia: "I shall not bother to elaborate on precisely what I mean by 'divine intervention', for I believe that you have already experienced the phenomenon yourself."
Minfilia: "You have a rare and special gift <insert player name here>, and it is that gift that has led you here to us."

(after this dialogue, the player is asked to 'Use the power of the Echo', which then sends the player through the Echo into a scene taking place moments before in the same place, where they stand around confused - it should be noted the npc who appeared in this scene differed depending on which city you started in - for me I started in Gridania so it was the 'Hermit of the Wood'.)

Hermit of the Wood: "I reckon I've found me another woken, Minfilia. The lass collapsed during the celebration."
Minfilia: "After years of naught but rumours, the past several moons have seen the hill of reports on my desk grow into a veritable mountain. Why the sudden influx? And why now, of all times? Which of the Twelve is waking men anew? Which... if any at all?"

(they then turn and notice your character standing there)

Hermit of the Wood: "How did you- But you're supposed to be- Oh."
Minfilia (with a slightly scornful look): "It seems you have a keen eye, my friend."

(The Echo scene then ends)

Minfilia: "And it seems you have passed our test."
Minfilia: "Yes, yes, you are wondering how what you just witnessed-a conversation between myself and the Hermit of the Wood-is even possible, considering the fact that one of the involved persons left the Waking Sands nearly a bell ago. Well that, <insert player name> is your gift."
Minfilia: "And I shall go one step further by suggesting that this is not the first time you have had such an experience. Come now, it is not, is it? Oh, you need not withhold your secrets from me. Here, you are among friends, and I give you my solemn word that no harm shall befall you. However, it might still be prudent to refrain from informing those not on the Path of your awakening. Very few will understand this gift, but many will seek to judge you for possessing it."
Minfilia: "And what you possess is a rare talent which we have come to refer to as, 'the Echo'. We believe it is in some way connected to the strange phenomena which have been occurring in locations all about Eorzea."
Minfilia: "Were you not witness to the skies turning dark and showering the land with a storm of stars? Some of our brothers believe that those partook in this celestial event were 'touched' by the Twelve, and that that is how they came by their gift."
Minfilia: "The Path is not only a place for study, but a refuge for those who have been touched in some way. We aim to uncover the meaning behind these unexplained events while offering protection and guidance to those who hear the Echo."
Minfilia: "But that is not all. My fellow walkers and I share the firm belief that that this power was given to us for a purpose. Why entrust man with a gift so extraordinary, after all, if not to have him use it?"
Minfilia: "And so we offer those who have been touched the means to use their power to better the world- to bring peace to Eorzea."

(she then ask the player to join the Path, but gives them leave to consider the choices and decide. After returning and deciding to join, the dialogue continues):

Minfilia: "Very good. I pray together we can learn more of this gift... for though we have scoured the realm for nigh on ten years, I fear there is still little we understand."
Minfilia: "Scores of men and women have passed through our doors looking to find answers, and scores have embarked on quests to do just that... but their efforts have gained us little... and many have not returned."
Minfilia: "Of those few who have... not one is willing to speak of what he saw at the end of the Path. It is as if they all bore witness to a truth too terrible... or too shameful to be told."
Minfilia: "There are those here who would have me use the Echo to delve into the past of the returned. Yet it would be wrong of me to use my gift to tear that truth from them against their will. Were I to condone such an act of violation, we would be no better than the monsters people think us already."
Minfilia: "Ah, but enough talk of the knowledge we lack. Let me tell you of what we do know."
Minfilia: "The Echo allows you to breach the wall of a person's soul, and hear the resonations of their past. You will be there in their memories, seeing things as they saw them. You may even interact with that which lies within. However, the past is like a stone tablet, you cannot uncarve what is already written."
Minfilia: "As an unexpected side-effect of the gift, it seems the ability to reach into the soul of another also allows some of us to understand their words without having to comprehend the words they utter. In short, the Echo has granted these fortunate souls mastery of every language existing on Hydaelyn."
Minfilia: "Unfortunately, that is the sum of our understanding of this gift from the gods... Why, we are not even sure the gift is from the Twelve. It is certainly true that many of those who hear the Echo also claim to have witnessed starshowers, but who is to say that even the starshowers are sent by them?"
Minfilia: "It is a sad admission, but this very lack of knowledge accounts for much of the persecution faced by our walkers. The less that is known about something, the more it is distrusted by the masses. If we were to learn more of the Echo, perhaps we could educate people, and help them to realize that we mean them no harm... But until we have learned that which we must teach them, we can expect only hatred."

(after this, Tataru enters and takes the player to choose their Path Companion, and that is the end of Minfilia's description of the Echo)

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Juxtaposing both 1.0 and ARR Minfilia Echo-description dialogues together, it is clear much indeed has been retconned, none the less how the Scions are very much different to their predecessors the Path of the Twelve, who were only interested in studying the Echo, it's origins and power, the Scions are now very much a paramilitary organization being used effectively as an anti-Primal force, with study of the Echo taking a back-seat somewhat - it definitely accounts for Minfilia's abridged description of the Echo in ARR in any event.

Another point in favor of your argument, Enkidoh, is the fact some people were said to have been using the Echo for gain (as demonstrated earlier in the discussion by pointing out the linguist). However, there was also talk of people forcefully examining the memories of others, which was part of why those with the Echo were outcast and people feared them.