Constructive opinion on Paladin and Warrior

The biggest advantage for WAR is once u learn fights u will always have a CD up for spike damage. Inner Beast is very very useful when used properly. Otherwise Paladins have a large CD suite that really does quite well in any situation

They are the same now, one can be better than other in specific contents, but overall they are the same. Stupid people will probably prefer pld because they are retarded and still playing the 2.0 (it still happens), and even more stupid people will prefer war because 8700 hpololol cit. but everyone else won't choose the one instead of the other(unless there are already a pld/war in an 8man party), so choose the one that you like more.

@Gangaloo
true that ;D, except most T5 group will prefer have War MT Twin and PLD OT (mainly on Dread phase.) that one of the very few that PLD excel at OTing LOL

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Originally Posted by Remn

@Gangaloo
true that ;D, except most T5 group will prefer have War MT Twin and PLD OT (mainly on Dread phase.) that one of the very few that PLD excel at OTing LOL

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I outlined that part... the only groups that would prefer a PLD OT during dread phase are the ones that aren't dropping the dreads within a few seconds after a 3 second stun. After you get good at that phase having a PLD OT makes the fight harder.

I think MTing Twin is more reliant on what your healers prefer. Since WAR gets a Rampart for every DS, coupled with other cooldowns he can use whenever they need to be used, they can be pretty solid at keeping stable. PLD will sometimes have a DS where they can't use a cooldown, so the healers will need to be more aware with Virus/E4E. The advantage of PLD is that they'll take less damage over the course of the fight with a tiny bit of communication between the healers and the advantage of WAR is they'll always take stable damage from every big hit. Hallowed Ground is sort of irrelevant as it's useful for both MTing and OTing (eating the liquid hells as MT and eating them as OT). Single tanking, I actually think WAR excels as they have higher EHP (Storm's Path~) and take consistent burst damage, whereas a PLD really only has the advantage of being able to Hallowed during the last phase if targeted with Liquid Hells. While useful, I think consistency and more overall health is better... plus WAR would be able to pump out more DPS in tanking stance. All that said, either could do either job and it's really just apples and oranges. The advantage of PLD MT in any content currently in the game is slight, and the advantage of WAR MT in any content currently in the game is slight.

@SpookyGhost

Not sure what you mean by higher EHP with Storm's Path. If your WAR is OT'ing PLD receives the benefit of Storm's Path as well.

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i have both at 50 and both used for engame tanking (cleared everything with both except for t5).. paladin is better than warriors in almost every aspect except aoe threat generation

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@Abigs
You obviously dont know how to play your warrior. Just because its 50 doesnt mean you know how to play it. Judging from your reply, I can tell you dont understand how different the tanking methods are between the two. Keep your posts constructive as the OP stated he doesnt want any fan boy stuff happening here, so take it elsewhere.

War takes more skill to play and master, which is why you will see a lot more bad war than bad pld. Paladin is easier to learn and play because their mitagtion abilities are a lot more forgiving if you time them wrong or too soon, also War is more gear intensive because their mitigation comes from their gear where a PLD mitigation is based on incoming damage. But that is by no means saying one is better than the other. Both are on equal grounds hands down. Play with what you feel more comfortable and enjoy more. At this point it is personal preference and both have Good and annoying things about the class.

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Originally Posted by Gangaloo

Not sure what you mean by higher EHP with Storm's Path. If your WAR is OT'ing PLD receives the benefit of Storm's Path as well.

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Single tank. With WAR/PLD the PLD ends up with more eHP, with just WAR or just PLD the WAR ends up with more eHP.

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Originally Posted by Gangaloo

I have both a WAR and a PLD in full ilvl 90 gear. I've been killing Twintania long before 2.1 came out so I have a decent amount of experience as a tank.

Even after the WAR buffs, PLD still mitigates damage better. They're better as endurance tanks and they're better at preventing large burst damage. To top it all off they have hallowed ground as their ultimate "Oh crap" move. Even though it's on a longer CD than Holmgang, it's still way more powerful.

WAR can definitely tank all end game content. PLD will be used mainly for progression groups and to make hard hitting bosses significantly easier. For mass pull speed runs in lower level dungeons, PLD will still be preferred due to the mitigation. Also, the large amounts of AOE threat WAR can produce is meaningless as long as PLD can hold AOE threat fine (which they can).

Everything I've said so far has made WAR sound inferior but that's far from the truth. If more bosses are introduced that circumvent parry/block (ADS and Ultima come to mind) the PLD advantage will take a dump in terms of mitigation. I doubt this will be the case for the most important fights but it seems like it might be the case for a few lower tier fights (we'll have to see).

WAR simply surpasses PLD as an off tank in almost all situations (except for maybe Titan because Hallowed Ground and Tempered Will + Sentinel are completely over powered for adds). WAR utility makes them extremely viable off tanks (Storm's Path is a huge help in a lot of fights, especially TT). WAR also does a LOT more damage than PLD. In the current content, WAR can get away with using DPS jewellery as an OT since nothing that has to be OT'd warrants a full tank set. Even if you have a PLD do the same, WAR does a lot more burst damage than PLD. So it's more ideal for mechanics like conflags and Dreadknights on TT. Some people will argue that a PLD OT is better for Dreadknights because of the longer stun, but once your group is comfortable with the fight, Dreadknights will drop almost right after they spawn, so they extra stunning is pointless. You'd rather have the extra burst damage from WAR to waste less time on DKs and kill TT faster.

WAR is a very powerful OT and completely capable of MT'ing all the current end game content. PLD will just be preferred for progression groups and groups that need the little extra mitigation PLD provides for end game encounters like TT. Aside from that, I find WAR to be a lot more engaging to play. You'd probably have more fun on a WAR unless you're a mitigation freak like me, in which case you'd prefer PLD.

The FF14 team has done a great job balancing the two tank classes, making them both viable. You should just keep in mind that if you decide to go WAR, due to popular community opinion you will be side lined as MT for PLD, and be slotted into the OT role in most groups.

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I agree with most of this post, except that WAR does a great job of aoe hate, IMO better than PLD. You have 2 resources to hold hate, TP and MP (Flash up to 3-4 times max isn't great but helps a ton in tp stretched situations or to start a pull), The main benefit being they hold hate while doing damage. Kills will always end quicker with mass aoe with a WAR tank, assuming the healers are good. Warrior has excellent short term mitigation that can easily last for a pull, Vengeance returns damage, and overpower does 150-200+ per hit depending on mob, That is a lot of damage to end a kill quicker. If a WHM is present and stunning things with holy too, the fights go much faster. PLD may mitigate more, but WAR will kill AoE groups faster with an equally skilled group.

Also, Tank stance or not, WAR does not surpass PLD by an extreme degree in dps, with i88 on both jobs and equal gear/stats, I am doing about 20-30 dps difference at most (DPS sets and tank sets), WAR being on top by a small margin in hours of testing.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Single tank. With WAR/PLD the PLD ends up with more eHP, with just WAR or just PLD the WAR ends up with more eHP.

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Actually, with WAR/PLD, they end up with the exact same eHP because the only difference in passive eHP is Storm's Path v. Rage of Halone. Once you have both present (assuming your OT PLD is actually willing to throw out an RoH combo every 20 seconds or so), they're both benefiting from both debuffs so the eHP is entirely equal.

Also, if you're talking eHP as it applies to those situations in which eHP is the valid marker of performance (i.e. burst damage), WAR is always going to have more eHP because they (should) have Inner Beast's 20% DR on top of Defiance's 25% +hp (effectively 156.25% baseline eHP) whereas PLD simply has the 20% DR from Shield Oath (effectively 125% baseline eHP). The only scenario where a WAR is going to have less eHP for those situations that care about eHP than a PLD is the one where the WAR in at the helm isn't a good WAR.

What *does* make the two tanks equal is the mean mitigation. PLD has 20% DR and blocking. WAR has Inner Beast, self healing, and Defiance's 20% +healing. In those scenarios where eHP *isn't* the primary factor in survivability or you cannot predict when bursts are coming (of which there are none yet), PLD edges out WAR because the PLD contributors are more effective over time; Defiance's constant contribution of 20% +healing is worth less than Shield Oath's 20% DR and the blocking contributes more than Inner Beast when averaged over time (the self healing is a marginal contributor that most often ends up generating overhealing than actually being an appreciable contributor, especially in those situations in which tank survivability is actually an issue).

Basically, WAR is the king of burst damage tanking while PLD is the kind of tanking constant high damage.

The other major balancing factor is WAR's higher damage (SE debuff beefing up PLD damage on top of the already ~10-20% higher DPS WAR manages) compared to PLD's higher utility (silence, non-CD stun, stoneskin). The question of effect of gear upon their relative performance is a non-issue. The difference in performance is negligible; the self healing that WAR gets from higher damage (which is the only gear dependent difference between WAR and PLD survivability) means next to nothing because it's such a small contribution to end survivability (especially in high damage scenarios where self healing doesn't matter because it doesn't scale).