Geomancer (CNJ Job) concept

Making it a tank would be easy, when geomancer stone equipped, it changes cleric stance to Granite stance, have it work similar to bear form for druids in WoW, while it's on increases Vitality, defense, and enmity by a certain % and keep the healing nerf on it.

Interesting idea but seems similar to blm to me I.e. stance mechanic to balance DPS/mp regen.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Making it a tank would be easy, when geomancer stone equipped, it changes cleric stance to Granite stance, have it work similar to bear form for druids in WoW, while it's on increases Vitality, defense, and enmity by a certain % and keep the healing nerf on it.

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Except, you know, because it would be swapping MND and INT for DPS casting purposes, you'd be able to swap out of it with no problem and start dumping out heals to rival an actual healer. You'd also have a healer with a whopping 4 attacks to its name and no tank CDs at all. CNJ isn't going to get any new job for it simply because, as a class, it's too entrenched as a healer and they're not going to double up on roles for a job.

Also, it makes absolutely *no sense* for CNJ to get a tank job from a thematic point. Druid manages to tank in WoW because it turns them into a *bear*; your idea would just be "stoneskin on myself makes me a tank!" which is a laughably flimsy pretext.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Except, you know, because it would be swapping MND and INT for DPS casting purposes, you'd be able to swap out of it with no problem and start dumping out heals to rival an actual healer. You'd also have a healer with a whopping 4 attacks to its name and no tank CDs at all. CNJ isn't going to get any new job for it simply because, as a class, it's too entrenched as a healer and they're not going to double up on roles for a job.

Also, it makes absolutely *no sense* for CNJ to get a tank job from a thematic point. Druid manages to tank in WoW because it turns them into a *bear*; your idea would just be "stoneskin on myself makes me a tank!" which is a laughably flimsy pretext.

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Your gear would not be mind based, so the higher level you get, the bigger the healing difference would be in and out of a cleric stance, and about the 4 attacks, lets look at gladiator, they get 4 combo abilities, a ranged attack, but since all conjurer attacks are ranged, this isn't an issue, a stun, conjurer gets a knockback/bind with fluid aura, all that's left is an aoe dot and a triggered pacify, with job abilities, cross class skills, and the fact that new jobs will probably come with a level cap, meaning more abilities, conjurer isn't missing that much.

As far as a stance to make you a tank being laughable, paladins use their skill with shields, shield oath to tank, warriors use defiance using their inner rage to tank, all geomancers would be doing is manipulating the elements around them to strengthen themselves, and weaken their enemies in order to tank.

I think this would work in well with the story, I'm thinking the first expansion will bring in more invasions form the empire and open up Ishguard, both which can looked as immediate threats to the Twelveswood, geomancers are a group of conjurers that have ventured out of the woods to stop the threat before it gets there, and have adapted their magics to stand on the frontlines for once. All this is just opinions and guesses, SE will do whatever they want, I can just see this as a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Your gear would not be mind based, so the higher level you get, the bigger the healing difference would be in and out of a cleric stance,

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All left side gear has the exact same amount of mainstat and VIT regardless of role. The only difference would be right side gear, which is ~30% of total additional mainstat. Basically, you'd get a tank that can swap out to act like ~75-80% of a healer, since it's not like they're losing any heals.

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the 4 attacks, lets look at gladiator, they get 4 combo abilities

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CNJ has no combo abilities and only has 3 real attacks that it would use: Stone II (since it's more damage than Stone), Aero II (DoT), and Aero (DoT). The CNJ"tank" rotation would consist of applying maintaining Aero II and Aero and spamming Stone II otherwise. If you think that PLD is boring, CNJ would be even worse, especially since PLD, at the very least, has 2 off-GCD attacks it uses. CNJ has none (Fluid Aura is a KB/bind utility; the stuff that it would actually KB would be annoying as hell for any melee DPS).

Also, you'd be creating a *really* weird enmity generation profile since there are no combos. The closest you could get, probably, is for Stone II to generate more enmity based for each of the DoTs you've placed on the target but, even then, you'd still be able to chain Stone II before having to recast Aero II or Aero, which still creates a wonky enmity generation profile.

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a ranged attack, but since all conjurer attacks are ranged, this isn't an issue

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Except that they're all casts, so you'd need to do something about that. You could make it so that the stance prevents you from being interrupted, but then you wouldn't be able to attack while moving, which is relatively integral to tanking.

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, a stun, conjurer gets a knockback/bind with fluid aura

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Stun != KB/Bind. Stuns actually work on bosses; KB/Bind don't (one of the reasons why Holmgang in 2.0 was so completely worthless). Stun doesn't play holy hell with mDPS; KB does.

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all that's left is an aoe dot and a triggered pacify

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You completely forgot the suite of 5 major tank CDs (Conv, Rampart, HG, Sentinel, Bulwark) that PLD has. CNJ has no tank CDs at all. Stoneskin is a *maybe*, but it's a hardcast and goes away pretty damned fast.

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with job abilities, cross class skills

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So, let's look at what CNJ is missing that needs to made up with in these 10 potential slots: it needs ~5 major tank CDs, a major DPS boost (FoF; Unchained and Berserk), a provoke, and a native AoE threat ability (and Flash isn't gonna cut it because Flash scales with attack power, which will be in short supply with MND as the attack stat). It also needs to have at least 3 of those at level 30 (AoE, DPS boost, tank CD). With GLA, you get Provoke and Convalescence (Awareness is a joke as a tank CD); with MRD, you don't get anything that fulfills those qualifications (Foresight is a joke; Bloodbath is similar).

As such, CNJ isn't going to have the requisite abilities at 30 (1 job ability and Convalescence; missing either the DPS CD or the AoE) and, unless the devs decide that abilities like Rampart and Vengeance should be cross-classable (doubtful; if they actually wanted to, they would have allowed Rampart to be CC instead of giving Vengeance the DR), you'd need to somehow fit an AoE, a DPS boost, and, at the very least, 3-4 tank CDs in there. While it wouldn't be explicitly required, you can be damned sure that there would need to be at least 1-2 ST attacks in there to make up for the fact that CNJ has a *horrible* native suite.

Something else to consider: because you're coopting the healer DPS stance to turn into a tank stance, this proposed CNJ DPS job would be at a substantial disadvantage while soloing.

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the fact that new jobs will probably come with a level cap, meaning more abilities, conjurer isn't missing that much.

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That's not a fact. That's a supposition. It would be a fact if the devs actually confirmed it, which is the opposite of what they've done since they've actually said that they plan on adding new jobs/classes as part of major updates rather than waiting for expansions.

So, yeah, CNJ is a laughable choice to use for a tank job. It's missing absolutely pretty much everything that a tank actually requires because all you think that a tank needs, apparently, is a tank stance and an attack or two.

Like I said, it's opinions and guesses, you obviously are set in yours, and think no one else can be right, I can live with that, I just think lancer and conjurer are the two most likely classes to get tanking jobs, if you can't see that, maybe you don't have much imagination in your thinking, I see conjurer as being able to branch into a tank job, you don't so be it. I for one would like to see them take chances and try things out of the box to maybe bring along something new and fun. Ninja was never thought to be a tank in XI, it couldn't use a shield, it didn't have amazingly high hps, couldn't use heavy armor, but players took it a different way and the game adapted to it. There is already a video out of a conjurer tanking Titan, I think if they wanted to, they could make it work.

If cures were potentially altered into something based on their Defense setup it might be workable but it seems like ti would be difficult And as was said it would have substandard DPS for soloing compared to even Paladin. Honestly I'd imagine Thaum or Pug branching into tanking first as they already have afew Defensive cooldowns to work with.;

I'm sorry...but this is a non-start design (and I am not one to say that often).

First problem is that you are attempting to change the base line effects of class skills. Adding Additional effects while under the effect of something else (See Warrior Defiance and Combos) is fine, but changing the baseline like Cleric Stance is a no-Go, otherwise it would be done elsewhere already.

Second problem is the change of the traits. Not to say this "Couldnt" be done, but it's not currently done, so the assumption should be that it is not done. Otherwise, Arcanist would be doing it right now when it switches to Scholar.

Third problem. A Geomancer is a Conjurer, a Conjurer is a healer. The big problem here is that you now have a DPS role with a massive amount of healing OR a large number of useless skills (Cure 1,2,3, Medica 1, 2) and traits. Neither are going to be particularly healthy.

Since the cleric stance change is a no-go, it's in the CNJ best interest to use Cleric stance for the dmg boost. This means MIND gear is the preferred set up. Clearly, this is not a sustainable or balanced function as a group with 2 GEOs is 1 button away from having 2 Healers or 2 DPS depending on whats needed. Even if the GEOs were using INT gear, they could actually invert Cleric Stance in order to pump their mind stat at a 20% penalty which grants a gamebreaking amount of healing considering their innate access to Medica II and how it stacks.

1 PLD, 1 WHM, 6 GEOs. The combination would trivialize damn near anything with just a coordinated Medica II blast every 30 seconds.


I would HEAVILY suggest not looking at CNJ for a Cross Role job. They are just way too focus built as a healer to effectively leave it behind without being broken. As it stands, I cannot find a way to make this viable.


HOWEVER

There is room within the healer role for a Geomancer type design. I built one a few months back as an offensive Proactive healer that incentivizes staying in Cleric Stance. I can try to drag it up, clean it up, and repost it up if anyone wants. I don't want to hijack the thread (as Kitru can attest, I have a bad habit of doing that while trying to be helpful.)

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you want to solve low level MP issues, this should be the level 30 ability, not Stone III. Of course, you'd still have to deal with the fact that GEO would be a basically worthless DPS for a *very* long period of time (Even with Quake at 30, it's going to be doing pitiful damage).

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They would need to solve the MP issues before that because of low level dungeons and level caps. A GEO can walk into a level 10 guildhest or a level 15 Sastasha and will be expected to fulfill its DPS role as well as any other class.

To this end I'd imagine they need to tie the MP fix to a low level action, preferably below level 10. You could tie it to CLeric Stance such that Cleric Stance would function differently with the GEO Stone equipped, perhaps by increasing mana regen, reducing costs of damage spells and nerfing cure effects heavily while active. Functionally it's different, but conceptually it's still the same, it's still your damage stance. I think that's an acceptable change that even the lowest common denominator of players can be expected to understand.

Another idea is to have GEO function such that they create effects around them based on the spells they cast. For instance Stone I could consecrate the ground they stand upon up. If they cast within the zone, they get the benefit of that zone's buff (damage increase and something to deal with mana issues in this instance) and build up stacks of that zone's potency. If they move and cast outside of the zone, they'll create a new zone (perhaps removing the old one). The trick is to make these big enough so there's some room to move around and function in movement fights without gimping dps *too* much.

A final thought (not related to the MP issue), is what to do with the cure spells. It might be interesting to have a long-ish cooldown called "Corruption" that turns cure spells into damage spells. The effect is to harness the power of corrupted elementals as were seen in the CNJ story line. Gives all those cure spells a purpose, but on a long enough cooldown to balance it out (since cure spell potency is very high).

I like the idea of GEO and I think it fits perfectly with the CNJ class, but I don't see any way of turning the base class into a DPS. I'd make it a healer with some different flavor.

Ground based effects: instant cast and you could have two out at a time.
The cost would either be TP/tick (opposite of Bard) or MP/tick but you'd risk running out quickly

Earthen Ward - Increases Defense of party members standing within the effect
Increases potency of Earth based spells when cast within the effect (Stone, Stone II, Stoneskin)
Zephyr Ward - Regen ground effect
Increases potency and duration of Air based spells when cast within effect (Aero, Aero II)
Aquan Ward - Haven't decided if it should be Refresh/TP regain (could be OP) or healing potency up
Increases potency and duration of Water based spells when cast within the effect (Fluid Aura, Flood, Spring Water)
Flood - Water based aoe dmg
Spring Water - Restores both HP and MP to target