The real reason why PVP is imbalanced

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Originally Posted by Tenku

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Group 1 = You can only enter as a solo queue.

Group 2 = You can only enter as a party of 2 or 4.

The 2 groups will never be matched together. Think of it as different instances. Obviously this is how it should work or else there wouldn't be two options for Wolf's Den at level 50. Did you not notice that you can only choose the last option when you're in a party of 4?

For your scenerio, I am guessing that there is a fail-safe that will allow your 4 man premade to be put into the first grouping because there weren't any other 4 man premades at the time. You just proved my point anyways. The Premade of 4 CREAMED the pug team.

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So for the options of 2 or 4 premades, how do you deal with

1) 2 pug players getting stuck in a partial premade group. Sure, supposedly it's balanced with 2 premade vs. 2 premade and 2 pug vs 2 pug, but not really. 2 SMN running the block will destroy just about anything vs. a pug not holding 2 SMN. So, you've solved little next to nothing except to allow min/max comps run ANY instance they want, and put 2 solo players in a premade, which means they might have all the issues you want to protect them from, plus any flaming from their 2 premade friends trying to run the show.

2) Groups of 3 who want to play together and don't have a 4th?

Your idea will burden the queue times and seems to solve little next to nothing to be honest.

My example was not to cater to your point. I vs. that same premade later and creamed them. I've gone in with full relic team premades vs. my pug and we've won. Yes, you're right, premades have a possible advantage, but a crappy premade, partial or full, has nothing on 4 solid players ending up together.

^ You really need to learn to read dude. Why would 2 pug players get stuck in a partial premade group with the way I explained it? If you solo queued, you can only be put into the instance with solo queues that means all 4 players on the team for both sides are solo queues.

If you are a premade of 2, you can be put into the 2nd instance that is meant for premades. You can possibly be put into a group with another premade of 2 pitted against a premade of 4. It's not perfect, but much more balanced than it is now.

Yes, in order for this to work, they have to make it impossible to queue as a party of 3 because the goal is to never allow the solo queue to be put into the same instance as any premades.

I'm going to bed. If you still can't understand this, please go back to school or learn some basic math.

SOLO INSTANCE 1 = SOLO PLAYERS ONLY = 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1) vs 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1)

PREMADE INSTANCE 2 = PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) vs PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4)

People will always scream that PvP is not balanced when they have a terrible win-loss record.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

^ You really need to learn to read dude. Why would 2 pug players get stuck in a partial premade group with the way I explained it? If you solo queued, you can only be put into the instance with solo queues that means all 4 players on the team for both sides are solo queues.

If you are a premade of 2, you can be put into the 2nd instance that is meant for premades. You can possibly be put into a group with another premade of 2 pitted against a premade of 4. It's not perfect, but much more balanced than it is now.

Yes, in order for this to work, they have to make it impossible to queue as a party of 3 because the goal is to never allow the solo queue to be put into the same instance as any premades.

I'm going to bed. If you still can't understand this, please go back to school or learn some basic math.

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So 2 premade teams of 2 team up, that means the queue needs 4 premade teams of 2 for that to work. OR, you say that 2 teams of 2 can vs. a team of 4, and that all the sudden it's balanced because why again?

You can insult me all you want. You're an idiot with stupid ideas and have no concept of how this will play out and wreak havoc on queue times. Maybe you should just find a few friends to play with and not worry about what's fair and not? I mean, is it fair that I see fully geared 50s in my level 30 queue?

You propose a horribly complicated solution to the so-called problems of a system that was implemented days ago. What you want are premade 2s or 4s arena teams. I am sure that will happen soon, along with other PVP options.

Did it ever occur to you that they did this the way they did to see how PVP will work, and to get some stats to know how to redesign this setup and create new setups? Probably not.

Oh, and learn to play, man. I do solo all the time and I am 49/60 wins on my teams, mostly all pugs.


EDIT: To clarify my point, a team of 2 DD will have to wait forever for a healer/tank premade to form. Or a DD/healer has to wait forever for a tank/DD. What are the odds that any given group of two will find a matching complement in under an hour? I couldn't say. But what I know is that you said I need to learn math. You need to learn basic statistics and probability, son.

My edit addresses your mathematical genius quite well, sir. You edited:

"SOLO INSTANCE 1 = SOLO PLAYERS ONLY = 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1) vs 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1)

PREMADE INSTANCE 2 = PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) vs PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) "

Many MMOs have the premade vs pug PVP problem. FFXIV already has solo and group queues, so it's really close to fixing the problem. Make the solo queue only accept solo players.

People who want to join the premade queue but only have 2 or 3 people can find another person or two and then enter the premade queue.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Many MMOs have the premade vs pug PVP problem. FFXIV already has solo and group queues, so it's really close to fixing the problem. Make the solo queue only accept solo players.

People who want to join the premade queue but only have 2 or 3 people can find another person or two and then enter the premade queue.

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I rather have it be impossible to queue as 3, but I guess it wouldn't hurt if the premade grouping just took a solo queue when that scenerio occurs. Glad you understand that the system is already in place and just needs to be tweaked. Many MMOs that have the premade problems include RIFT, TERA, and WOW.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

You've solved nothing.

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I'm pretty sure you're just like me taking advantage of the 3 man premade. It's the only reason I can think of why you're so adamant on not wanting to make it better. I said they should make it impossible to queue as a 3 man premade, but if you really want the 3 man premade, fine, you can have it. When there is a group of a 3 man premade, the server will pull a solo queue into the premade group. Having these restrictions between the 2 duty finders which is ALREADY IN PLACE would actually go along way to making it more balance.

Next time, when you decide to toss somebody's idea in the trash, you should come up with a better argument than "You've proposed no solutions here. Short fixes for rare cases that still are imbalanced unless premade 4 v 4." If you used simple logic and understood what type of players this game catered towards, then you'd understand why it's important to balance it for solo players:

THIS GAME IS CATERED TOWARDS CASUAL GAMERS. The pvp has only been out for 3 days and you've already done over 60 matches which makes you NOT a casual gamer. So how about stop thinking about yourself and think about what's good for the game.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

People will always scream that PvP is not balanced when they have a terrible win-loss record.

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My Win-Loss record is positive only because I also take advantage of the 3 man premade group. Most of my losses came from solo queue. It doesn't take a genius to know why that's the case.

I understand his concern. I think he worded it poorly. It's not necessarily an issue of 'balance', but he wants to give solo que's of 4 vs. a premade of 3 a better fighting chance. The coordination, skill, and application of a premade 3-man team in vent will easily outdo just about any comp that you can get random PUG'd against.

In his example, he wants solo que's to always get put into random groups, against solo que's. This would allow people who do not have a static/pre-made group of 3 people from getting steamrolled by those who go in with 3 people, because 3 people is pretty much a premade group and is great for demolishing smaller teams.

Well, I don't think it would solve -any- balance, I think it's a great idea that would allow people solo que'ing to have more fun, and meet more people.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

I'm pretty sure you're just like me taking advantage of the 3 man premade. It's the only reason I can think of why you're so adamant on not wanting to make it better. I said they should make it impossible to queue as a 3 man premade, but if you really want the 3 man premade, fine, you can have it. When there is a group of a 3 man premade, the server will pull a solo queue into the premade group. Having these restrictions between the 2 duty finders which is ALREADY IN PLACE would actually go along way to making it more balance.

Next time, when you decide to toss somebody's idea in the trash, you should come up with a better argument than "You've proposed no solutions here. Short fixes for rare cases that still are imbalanced unless premade 4 v 4." If you used simple logic and understood what type of players this game catered towards, then you'd understand why it's important to balance it for solo players:

THIS GAME IS CATERED TOWARDS CASUAL GAMERS. The pvp has only been out for 3 days and you've already done over 60 matches which makes you NOT a casual gamer. So how about stop thinking about yourself and think about what's good for the game.

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All I did was point out the problems with your plan. Do you really want to wait an hour for a queue to pop? Either you do in the name of 256bit justice, or you don't. You already said, if it came to that, then just go back to putting pugs in to fill the spots. So imbalance or long queue times, which is it.

And no, as I said, I run mostly solo queue. The only time I ran otherwise is with a BLM friend of mine for like 15 runs. So, yeah, I must be profiting off of the system if I don't see it your way. At least, that's what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

You really don't read do you? Again.... you stated yourself.. there is a ALREADY a fail-safe system in place to make it so when there are no other 4 man parties queued, your 4 man premade will be put into the other queue that has non 4 man premades. lol. good night.

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YOU DONT READ. That negates fixing the problem man. You'll end up in this situation most of the time, which means that you've only balanced PVP 10% of the time, when the conditions are perfect for matching premades. God, either I am not understanding you, or you're not getting my point.