Primals and Egis

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Originally Posted by Niniyo

For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Fire Sprites that were in that fight were naturally drawn to the rampant aether in the surrounding area. Could have even been a backlash and formed from said aether. I don't think they were summoned, per se.

Also, Moose, I am actually in line with you way of thinking on aether and the primals. Just one thing bothers me: The primals have memories.

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I dunno. Part of this is sleepy-Wolf talking, and the other part is me not having full access to the cutscenes to back myself up. I'll do more theorizing over here. *wave*

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

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I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

Norondor take note that the Scholar fairies (in particular Eos I believe) also have memories of their own. They are summons like the others but as moose said, it seems like the ones who devised them found a way to store their memories in the job crystals.

Which is actually something that fits the primals and their memories. Notice how every beastman camp has this gigantic aetheryte. Who is to say that, perhaps even as a safety measure to ensure continued existance, the primals haven't devised such things to maintain their particular aetherial essence safe and moderately cohese after a defeat?

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

http://youtu.be/GR_E5qtgpGs

They have conciseness of their own and an independent existence.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

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Possibly. They clearly do have memories, but this conversation with the Paragon could have simply been during a past summoning. This quest is almost identical to its Version 1.0 equivalent, but in that version we didn't know what the echo was or who gave it to us or what ascians were. We were simply investigating the "sighting of a paragon" in the Amalj'aa's domain. They might have simply had the conversation earlier.

My theory definitely lacks some of the specifics I'd call required, though. Mostly, I'm just musing :P

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Originally Posted by Norondor

I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

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That may be true, but it still makes it an impossibility that they are created anew every time they are summoned. They have recollection of previous events, personal views on them, et all. Something the zealot summoners of the beast tribes likely would not be brazen enough to do. Though, I do think that you're on the right track.

No, I am beginning to think that aether is just life-stuff. Garuda existed in Ixal legend, as far as we are told, about 500 years prior to her first summoning. And it is widely known that the Ascians taught the beast tribes how to summon. I am beginning to believe that they 'taught' them how to 'summon' by giving them the knowledge of how to access large amounts of aether and romantically spicing up creation methods using aether. Aether that was released at Silvertear Falls by Garlemald. Whom they, in turn, were guided by the Ascians to do so.

So the Ixal create their goddess from the aether, who is made purely thereof, but is just a piece of life among the rest of the aether.

I think I just came to the detailed conclusion that Moose came to months ago. Oye.

Anyway, where does that leave Egis? I think memories, and the recent introduction of the beast tribe quests, can help us understand that.

In the summoner quest line, it is stated that that you needed to triumph over the primal in order to command some of its power. That, as was mentioned previously, implies that you need to have been exposed to them in person. Similar to not being able to teleport to some place you've never been to. You need knowledge of your goal in order to achieve it.

Now, most recently, in the beast tribe quests, the leader of the Amals that you are aiding (sorry, game is down again and I can't check specifics like names and spellings.../blush) states that he can detect Ifrit in your aura, so he has little doubt over your claim of defeating him. This means that contact with the primals does indeed leave some sort of marker on you, and it sounds like it's the stench of aspected aether.

So now I know what Garuda looks like, I know how she fights, I have experienced (rather painfully) the effects of wind-aspected aether. I've also got her stench on me. Now, doesn't that sound like a great start to making my own Garuda? Now to just head to a heavily wind-aspected environment, focus on my memories, and cheat.

Yes, cheat. Arcanists make magic happen by being smart, not by dipping into personal aether wells or the aether of the environment. Carbuncle happens because it would have happened anyway, I just figured out how to make it happen when I want it to.

So now I use the same techniques when creating my own Garuda. I take some already-existing aether, form it how I like, suppress it, and assign it to myself (via my Garuda-stink). Now, whenever I need it, I can summon my little Garuda whenever I want, as it already exists within the aether as a form of life that I shaped right from the aether. I just need to make it happen.

If I hadn't come across Garuda, had the Ascians not influenced the Ixal into creating her, had the Ixal theology of hundreds of years ago not thought her up, and if I used the same method I mentioned earlier, my wind Egi could look like anything. Typhoon, perhaps or Valefor. It just looks like Garuda because that's what I have come to believe is wind aether, so it heavily influences my memories.

Arcanists play with the aether to ridiculous levels, yet, they have absolutely no impact on the aether balance because they aren't changing the flow of aether. They're just taking what is already there and making what they want out of it. Arcanists are kind of like gods, to be poetic about it.

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

Plus I would not call it a stench in the quest it says when you beat a primal some of their aetheric essence is trapped in your body. I think its similar to what ultima weapon did to the primals but smaller I mean looking at how they die and all that aether spilling out everywhere not all of it goes back to the land (going by the lore that is said in the monk quest and the monk does something similar to power up and get stronger) so the people present during the defeat absorb some of the aether that is spilling out when they "die". The npc who helps you become a summoner pretty much says you got a piece of them in your body a small piece and that is what you summon. So everyone who beats a primal(who survives) has a piece of the primal within in them sitting there waiting to be summoned.

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him and the npc during quest says you have to show them your strength for them to accept you as their master. I also bet they are pissed off at you kicking their butts when you first summon them so that can be another motivator for them trying to kill you. ;)

You'll have to pardon the terminology, as I was going mostly off of the quest I most recently completed and remembered more about (the Amal beast tribe quest).

...And, in any case, I just like my version better. Right or wrong. :D

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Originally Posted by shinros

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

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Yeah. I'm glad that we can all share our thoughts at least. There are many different little points, subtle things at times, but I think that it's helped me gain a better understanding than I had initially at least. =)

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Originally Posted by shinros

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him...

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That's a good point, and something I forgot about o.o

It's particularly curious though, and it brings up a question for me.

So we have Tristan who's summoned Ifrit-egi, and we have Titan-egi suddenly appearing to protect you from Hellfire.

But here's the thing. Titan-egi protects you, which makes sense, and follows from defeating them and having them accept you, but Ifrit-egi is attacking you, despite the fact that you'd also defeated him, and he's accepted you.

Is this because Ifrit-egi is a /different/ Ifrit-egi, and so Tristan's has never fought you before, and so has no loyalties to you?
OR
Is it the "same" Ifrit-egi, but, having been summoned by Tristan, his loyalties lie solely with him, and so he says "fight" and Ifrit-egi fights?