Shroud of Saints mana regen should not be static

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Originally Posted by Syncness

I also was not comparing both classes

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Originally Posted by Syncness

I don't really want to bring class comparisons into this, but Aetherflow regens 20% IIRC.

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The proof is in the pudding.

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Originally Posted by Pharazon

Casting Cure I 30 times takes 1 minutes (no spell speed) which costs you 3990 mana. Assuming a mana pool of 4000 that would be 99.75% of your mana but during that same time you will have regenerated 4800mp ((4000 x 6%) * (60secs / 3))

Assuming a mana pool of 5000 that would be 79.8% of your mana but during that same time you will have regenerated 6000mp ((5000 x 6%) * (60secs / 3))

When using cure 1 you will be getting back more mana than you burn through. Using your other heals is what pushes you down. The larger your mana pool the more tolerance you have built in to use those other heals.

Shroud is for when you need a large number of those other heals and need to stabilize after or get caught back up a bit because you didn't weave in enough Cure I to keep your mana stable.

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Good insight, but missing the point. The discussion isn't what is the use for shroud, is that it's mechanic will make PIE worth less and less for WHMs.

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Originally Posted by IceSpear

The proof is in the pudding.

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Yes and that is to show that one healer class has gains outside of innate effects of PIE whilst the other has none. This is not the discussion, this is pointing out that a stat isn't useless like the tank equivalent of STR since both tanks have minimal gains from it.

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Originally Posted by Syncness

Good insight, but missing the point. The discussion isn't what is the use for shroud, is that it's mechanic will make PIE worth less and less for WHMs.

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If the argument is going to be made that Shroud should scale with PIE then you have to consider what Shrouds and to a lesser extent PIE's use actually are. The point I was making is that as your mana pool grows from adding PIE that you have more tolerance to heal less efficiently and need shroud less and less. At lower levels of gear shroud is your cushion for healing less efficiently and as you continue to gear up you have the built in regen making shroud less needed. If both scaled with PIE then you would not have no need for mana management at all and would end up with nearly infinite mana pools.

Long term shroud might need an update but at current gear levels with the way passive regen works I don't see any issues.

Although mp is manageable atm I can understand OP's concern for the future. IMO SE should give WHM another method to shed hate because we're currently prevented us from using SoS to its full mp regen potential. At times I find myself having to save SoS in case of ripping hate from the tank but to my knowledge SCHs are able to use aetherflow every 60 seconds with zero downsides. I'm not saying WHM should be given the same exact abilities as SCH, I'm merely asking for a way to either regen mp or shed hate that isn't tied with each other.

agree with having another way of shedding hate seems like shoud gets wasted to much in coil I dunno how many times I've used it at almost full mp just to shed hate wish we had another way to do it

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Originally Posted by Pharazon

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In that case the mana regen part of shroud becomes more and more weaker and would mainly be used as a threat drop with the side benefit of 1060 mana, to let part of a skill die like this doesn't seem like particular great design when they could adjust shroud to have the same mana regen with base level WHM stats, thereby prolonging a skills usefulness. Depending on the formula (which doesn't necessarily need to have great gains from PIE), it could easily make PIE a desired stat instead of a byproduct of limited gear choice.

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Originally Posted by Syncness

*snip*

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I was not saying that the design of shroud was fine. But at current gear level and for quite a while down the road 1060 mana is and will be a sizeable chunk of your mana pool. You need 5300 mp just to make that 20% of your pool. Once we get to that point down the road where shroud is sub 15% of your mana pool (~6600mp) then it will start approaching what others and yourself have been describing where it is a threat dump with some mana tacked on. Personally I want them to be very careful with shroud as I don't want an infinite or even nearly infinite mana pool. I really think the mana management in the game is just about spot on and as we continue to gear shroud will eventually need to be worked (maybe by PIE scaling or maybe just making it a flat % of your pool) but for now its design works.

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Originally Posted by Syncness

This is not what testing indicates. http://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVTC/comm...oud_of_saints/

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Thanks for posting this, I honestly wondered the other night how much we regenerate and I thought 'well based on potency I guess it's really not as bad as I thought!', I thought that it was due to 2 minutes some people wind up going 'I better save it just in case' and so it prolongs the use and thus overall next usage...

But sheesh kapeesh! 1060? I always thought it was more...!

They will probably do something to the passive before they touch the spell since it would be max lvl content where any kind of issue would crop up. And even then it probably wouldn't be a big change, maybe bump the refresh to 100 or so. But by the time shroud is not used for mana but instead for threat then I would imagine mana would be largely a non-issue. Plus, BRD.

You mean bards that actually use their songs besides foe and the sprint one? Only time pre coil I see actual songs mostly is during Garuda HM and maybe Titan. We will be getting the crystal tower soon and extreme primal modes who knows what else. Heck I was tanking Cutters the other day and the whm complained that they had ran out of mana. Told them that's what shroud was for. They were like it doesn't give me mana back. Let's just say the next few exchanges didn't go so well. I can already see how shroud needs a boost specially when doing things like AK with a new tank or a bad one. I'm not even past Titan mostly due to bad groups but I have ran into situations where I've poped shroud more for the hate shed then the mp gain.