What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

or you just have terrible sense of taste but its ok to be wrong so whatevs.

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*tips fedora*

*eats dumpling*

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

No new character will be 'interesting' from the getgo. Absolutely no matter what it will be, the moment new character is introduced as part of 'main group', there will be SOME loud people who will instantly start a bemoaning of how much they hate them and how boring and predictable/annoying and obnoxious/generic and unintereting the new character is and how they cant wait for them to die off to get replaced with a 'more interesting character'. All while in next paragraph complaining about scions always being there and relevant.

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No, but there are ways of making a character at least appealing enough at introduction to warrant some investment in where their story arc will go. Enough people dislike Zero that one should at least be willing to entertain the idea SE failed to do this. As well, one should acknowledge the possibility of the direction that character's development has gone in being something more than just a handful of players dislike.

Very seldom do video game characters that stick around for an excessive period of time not wind up overstaying their welcome. You can witness this in action with the myriad of Scion complaints from practically all of the different demographics playing this game. The Scions going their own separate ways after sadbird's defeat gave me a taste of something bitter: hope that SE had realized this. Unfortunately, that hope was dashed in the very next patch.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

*tips fedora*

*eats dumpling*

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*starts running towards the camera real fast*

<wonder if anyone would get the reference>

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

No, but there are ways of making a character at least appealing enough at introduction to warrant some investment in where their story arc will go. Enough people dislike Zero that one should at least be willing to entertain the idea SE failed to do this. As well, one should acknowledge the possibility of the direction that character's development has gone in being something more than just as vocal minority some posters would like to represent nay-sayers as.

Very seldom do video game characters that stick around for an excessive period of time not wind up overstaying their welcome. You can witness this in action with the myriad of Scion complaints from practically all of the different demographics playing this game. The Scions going their own separate ways after sadbird's defeat gave me a taste of something bitter: hope. Unfortunately, these hopes were dashed in the very next patch.

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Enough people will be loud about disliking any character to make a sweeping statement about writers' failure, won't make it any more true. Zero is by far the freshest breath of air in terms of new characters not overlapping too hard with old/pre-existing ones, IMO. And while her personality is 'bland', thats kinda the point. She's in a 'learn how to feel' character arc right now, and we haven't really had cold and distant allies since like... Heavensward I'd say, where that was only by virtue of Estinien and Ysayle being too at odds with one another to properly get closer to us. Her arc is nothing groundbreaking but absolutely nothing in entire history of FF14's writing really ever was, it was just good execution of existing tropes and subversions and that's what I like about it, nor do I expect anything groundbreaking either (and if there will be, I'll just be satisfied with a pleasant surprise). And of course, there's a big issue of introducing a whole cast of new characters to replace old ones - it will be even harder to give them all time and attention needed to be nearly as developed and likeable. Hell, even Scions were basically scattered after ARR and then slowly re-introduced few-by-few to try and salvage the fact that it was pretty hard to get invested into any scions except one(s) you meet in 1-15 MSQ. I'd say it was mostly successful for me. And I am definitely more a fan of cast being slowly altered over time rather than suddenly dumped and replaced with a bunch of literally whos. That definitely would kill investment for way more players than the few who are bored of existing characters.

There is no need to introduce a cast of characters to replace the Scions. One of the staples of being the/a Warrior of Light in Final Fantasy as a whole has been wandering, and this has typically been done with no or very few allies until such time as they were needed. It's also rather common for Final Fantasy protagonists to group with different people at different times, oft times finding new companions (and parting ways with old ones) as they reach new areas. Those companions needn't be fleshed out beyond merely being given interesting personalities and perhaps a bit of backstory to discover along the way. They are, after all, temporary.

It's fine for the Scions to pop up from time to time, but there's zero reason to have them be there every single time. Let the WoL strike out on their own for a while or something. It would be a nice change. Etheirys has a vast amount of land yet unexplored by the Warrior of Light. It's time for the devs to embrace the title they gave the game's protagonist, by having them step out on their own in search of new adventures.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is no need to introduce a cast of characters to replace the Scions. One of the staples of being the/a Warrior of Light in Final Fantasy as a whole has been wandering, and this has typically been done with no or very few allies until such time as they were needed. It's also rather common for Final Fantasy protagonists to group with different people at different times, oft times finding new companions (and parting ways with old ones) as they reach new areas. Those companions needn't be fleshed out beyond merely being given interesting personalities and perhaps a bit of backstory to discover along the way. They are, after all, temporary.

It's fine for the Scions to pop up from time to time, but there's zero reason to have them be there every single time. Let the WoL strike out on their own for a while or something. It would be a nice change. Etheirys has a vast amount of land yet unexplored by the Warrior of Light. It's time for the devs to embrace the title they gave the game's protagonist by having them step out on their own in search of new adventures.

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Yep that's what I want. Emet Selch said it best. "And I see you insist on the same familiar company. Are you so lost without them?"

Just let the WoL do their own thing. Without Scion assistance.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is no need to introduce a cast of characters to replace the Scions. One of the staples of being the/a Warrior of Light in Final Fantasy as a whole has been wandering, and this has typically been done with no or very few allies until such time as they were needed. It's also rather common for Final Fantasy protagonists to group with different people at different times, oft times finding new companions (and parting ways with old ones) as they reach new areas. Those companions needn't be fleshed out beyond merely being given interesting personalities and perhaps a bit of backstory to discover along the way. They are, after all, temporary.

It's fine for the Scions to pop up from time to time, but there's zero reason to have them be there every single time. Let the WoL strike out on their own for a while or something. It would be a nice change. Etheirys has a vast amount of land yet unexplored by the Warrior of Light. It's time for the devs to embrace the title they gave the game's protagonist by having them step out on their own in search of new adventures.

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I agree with what angry looking man said, I want my own adventure, Scions can take a little holiday and reunite after :3

I won't deny, it'd be interesting story.... If FF14's storytelling structure allowed for such story to be viable. From the first cutscene to the last quest of MSQ we have always been told what to do next one way or another. We have always been following people around, who will talk about environment and people around you and give the journey direction. There was never agency, and there never can be with silent protagonist in linear story with intentionally ambigous motives and personality of said protagonist. Scions 'disbanding' was clearly stated that it was basically a ruse to fool the public and they will all stay connected as friends and help one another - which is precisely how patches played out so far. And that they will get together again if world needs it, which will most likely happen by 7.0. In this game's structure there can never be true 'our own journey'. The part about wandering the world and exploring is handled via side content of all types. Us doing it is us doing the 'our own' wandering and adventuring of this game. And its a pipe dream to ever expect any more from an MMORPG with story structure like that.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

In this game's structure there can never be true 'our own journey'.

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FFXIV simply doesn't have a structure like GW2, ESO, FFXI, LotR:Online, SWTOR, Secret World Legends.

FFXIV has a story driven narrative but the narrative isn't about you 90% of the time. It's more about these NPCs and the player is a just a supporting character or plot.

It's like a DnD campaign and your characters only purpose is to participate in combat and deal damage. No real story involvement.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

FFXIV simply doesn't have a structure like GW2, ESO, FFXI, LotR:Online, SWTOR, Secret World Legends.

FFXIV has a story driven narrative but the narrative isn't about you 90% of the time. It's more about these NPCs and the player is a just a supporting character or plot.

It's like a DnD campaign and your characters only purpose is to participate in combat and deal damage. No real story involvement.

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You've never played good DnD then.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

FFXIV simply doesn't have a structure like GW2, ESO, FFXI, LotR:Online, SWTOR, Secret World Legends.

FFXIV has a story driven narrative but the narrative isn't about you 90% of the time. It's more about these NPCs and the player is a just a supporting character or plot.

It's like a DnD campaign and your characters only purpose is to participate in combat and deal damage. No real story involvement.

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The DnD campaign is a terrible comparison, but otherwise it is on point, yes. You do not have any agency, you are a hero on your hero amusement park ride. I don't think its neccessarily bad in and of itself though. That story structure can work and has worked in the past, and not just for FF14. But it comes with caveats - such as absolute reliance on companions and surrounding characters that actually will push your cart forward down the story lane. And if thats not for some people, well, I'm surprised they made it as far as Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

You've never played good DnD then.

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FFXIV just has a terrible Dungeon Master and a shit party.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It was certainly a genius move to chase out Matsuno while allowing several individuals who aren’t worth naming to fail upwards into positions of power - only for the writing in all aspects of the game to suffer as a result. If I had to choose between the current state of affairs and the way things used to be, my choice is obvious.

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We agree with the post. The Realm Rebirth and the Heavenswart it is good because the Matsuno is main fanfic writer. Future of FF it needing guild to lead fanfic writing and show good way.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is no need to introduce a cast of characters to replace the Scions. One of the staples of being the/a Warrior of Light in Final Fantasy as a whole has been wandering, and this has typically been done with no or very few allies until such time as they were needed. It's also rather common for Final Fantasy protagonists to group with different people at different times, oft times finding new companions (and parting ways with old ones) as they reach new areas. Those companions needn't be fleshed out beyond merely being given interesting personalities and perhaps a bit of backstory to discover along the way. They are, after all, temporary.

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Is not true. Must kill off all the Scallion chara to be making the new one. Is need for the dark chocolate fantasy traditional masculine setting like the game of the thrones. It making the dramatic surprise and show fanfic writer not afraid to throw away the develop chara. But is bad to get rid of No Shadow God. Is why guild must be writing story for patch 70.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

FFXIV simply doesn't have a structure like GW2, ESO, FFXI, LotR:Online, SWTOR, Secret World Legends.

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Is true. Other MUD it is writing like the choose the own adventure book. Chara it can correct course of story and is have full control on ending like the Mass Effect 3 advertise. Is like be the ghost writing of story. BBB was high impress Mass Effect 3 advertiser for live up to claim.

I'd love an expansion similar to Treasures of Aht Urhgan to come out for XIV. WoL sails away to the new world continent. Gets entangled with some grizzled mercenaries who don't know jack shit about WoL.

Perhaps fighting against some force backed by a deity that arose out of being some random unsundered creature that perhaps escaped Hydaelyn's attack through sheer folly. Or hell, back by aliens that are composed of Dynamis that are older than we know the cosmos to be or some shit.

Or hell, have the current arc somehow smash Etheirys back together so there's no more of this 9/14ths vs. 1/14ths vs. power levels are bullshit going on with the plot anymore. Make the place with the mercs be some uprooted nation that now has to fight/contend with the other uprooted nations on the recombined Etheirys. Make'em not only know jack shit about the WoL, but not know jack shit about their enemies or the new world around them.

Idk. Reintroduce stakes somehow. Man. I'm outta care to think up good ideas.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Or hell, have the current arc somehow smash Etheirys back together so there's no more of this 9/14ths vs. 1/14ths vs. power levels are bullshit going on with the plot anymore. Make the place with the mercs be some uprooted nation that now has to fight/contend with the other uprooted nations on the recombined Etheirys. Make'em not only know jack shit about the WoL, but not know jack shit about their enemies or the new world around them.

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Seven of the reflections have already been rejoined. Aside from the First and the Thirteenth, there are four reflections we've never seen. So if they recombined the various reflections into a single world, FFV-style, the plot could have us going through six new zones that are significant lands from their respective reflections. For the First this would probably mean letting us see some location that wasn't shown in Shadowbringers, like the coastal region between Lakeland/Amh Araeng and Kholusia. Everything else would be pretty brand new.

I'd like it, if only because it'd mean the developers have no excuse not to bring Ryne back.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Seven of the reflections have already been rejoined. Aside from the First and the Thirteenth, there are four reflections we've never seen. So if they recombined the various reflections into a single world, FFV-style, the plot could have us going through six new zones that are significant lands from their respective reflections. For the First this would probably mean letting us see some location that wasn't shown in Shadowbringers, like the coastal region between Lakeland/Amh Araeng and Kholusia. Everything else would be pretty brand new.

I'd like it, if only because it'd mean the developers have no excuse not to bring Ryne back.

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Maybe make those Role Quest NPCs come back too! I wanna get drunk with Giott again.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Maybe make those Role Quest NPCs come back too! I wanna get drunk with Giott again.

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Oh, definitely.

I think folks get a little too hung up on the idea that past content must be rendered mandatory for characters from that content to show up elsewhere. I've been playing a ton of Genshin Impact in the past half-year or so. It ain't perfect, and it's a gacha game on top of a competent action/adventure RPG so that's a major turn-off for a lot of folks. But whenever an event comes up and there's a character who the player would only have met if they did some questline they never touched, they give you a brief paragraph summarizing who the characters is and then carry on.

I literally had no clue who Fischl was when I started, on account of her only ever showing up in seasonal events that passed long before I started playing. But the character writing was strong enough, or at least catchy enough, that this didn't matter when she showed up as a main character in a lengthy questline for a summer event.

Shit, the game already has something like that as it is—the Unending Codex. Just put entries in for Gaia, Taynor, Granson, Lue-Reeq, Cerigg, Giott, and Cyella/Cylva the "first" time we meet them. If anyone's confused, they can just reference the codex.

EDIT: Since I'm sure my sub time has expired now, I've likely only got 1-2 weeks left before my forum access is voided again. So I'm gonna take this opportunity to stealth edit.

Chapter 22 of Amidst the Ashes of Paradise has received significant editing from me, raising the wordcount from around 9,000 to 14,000. One particular scene—Ryne refusing to take on the mantle of Azem, Venat saying her goodbyes, and the trio departing for the First—has been expanded into four scenes, better pacing the event and giving everyone room to breathe. Hermes, Pleione, and Maia are also included in the new version of this chapter, with Lily making amends with Hermes and Venat rather than somewhat awkwardly delivering exposition to the latter (the exposition is still there, but I think I handled it better this time around).

Total wordcount for Ashes is now 155,000 or so. More will be on the way later—I need to pick through 23 and 24 to make sure I didn't create any continuity errors, and I want to get onto writing a proper finale for the Ancients themselves, showcasing their arrival in Ultima Thule.

https://youtu.be/LYoYxZ4lWpg

Finally, a critical take on Hermes.

I was always bothered by how we're suddenly all empathic towards Amon/Fandaniel after all the terrible things he had done just because we got to "understand" him during his original lifetime as Hermes.

The closest thing to a negative response you're able to give him is "...", which he does at least interpret as being disapproving, but it's a rather...marked contrast from Zenos who is framed strictly in a negative light for basically all of his post-Stormblood appearances, particularly in the 6.x post-MSQ where Zero spares no breath in expressing her hatred of him and you're only allowed to agree with that view.

When I heard Amon say “the man I was would weep for what I have become” I assumed that whoever Unsundered Fandaniel was, he must’ve been a good person, and I assumed that would be the case with Hermes until the very end of Elpis and then…

Yeah, that didn’t work out.

Is exciting. Guild making story analyser video now. All must support first video. Will be more to come.

Dont need a video analysis to see that Hermes being the one who instigated the entire ordeal with allowing Meteion to end the universe was a real piece of work.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

I’m not actually writing the part of them taking the fight to her in the alt timeline, but it seems that you’ve done it, so I’ll most certainly give it a read.

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Ah, I should clarify. I haven't actually done that yet—only alluded to (some of) the Convocation, Hermes, and Venat eventually doing so. And while I do intend to write their first contact with the Meteia, I don't believe I'll do the whole of Ultima Thule. Better to leave that to the imagination, as otherwise I'd only be treading ground Endwalker itself already covered.

The majority of Ashes is dedicated more to the WoL (Galbana Lily) seeking to prevent the Final Days and the Sundering from occurring at all. I'll also make a confession—if you're expecting the story to portray any of the characters involved as evil, it's not like that. Everyone is given as fair a presentation as I could manage. It's actually kind of tricky, writing like that. If Fire Emblem has taught me anything, it's that having a villain or villainous group that exists to be hated goes a long way to keeping morally gray characters sympathetic. But I couldn't put a villain like that into this story.

… Well, aside from Ifrita. But that's spoilers.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Ah, I should clarify. I haven't actually done that yet—only alluded to (some of) the Convocation, Hermes, and Venat eventually doing so. And while I do intend to write their first contact with the Meteia, I don't believe I'll do the whole of Ultima Thule. Better to leave that to the imagination, as otherwise I'd only be treading ground Endwalker itself already covered.

The majority of Ashes is dedicated more to the WoL (Galbana Lily) seeking to prevent the Final Days and the Sundering from occurring at all. I'll also make a confession—if you're expecting the story to portray any of the characters involved as evil, it's not like that. Everyone is given as fair a presentation as I could manage. It's actually kind of tricky, writing like that. If Fire Emblem has taught me anything, it's that having a villain or villainous group that exists to be hated goes a long way to keeping morally gray characters sympathetic. But I couldn't put a villain like that into this story.

… Well, aside from Ifrita. But that's spoilers.

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That’s fine, I’m sure it will be an interesting read nonetheless, any WOL that doesn’t blindly nod along and accepts that the ancients are doomed is a better character than what we see in the game.

And I have no problems with the fair representation approach. I tried not to present Venat or Hermes as outright villainous either as to not make it entirely one-sided. The only character that I decided to lean in with the “pure unapologetic evil” angle is Amon, I think that’s what they should’ve made him in the game and not dropped the ball with trying to make him sympathetic in the Aitiascope cutscene.

I look forward to future videos from that channel. Wonder what they'll do next.

If that video taught me anything its that they had no idea what they wanted exactly from Hermes as a character. There seemed to be a huge difference in what they wanted to say versus what they showed and due to this Hermes is constantly mischaracterized(IMO). Even more proof for me to believe this expansion was rushed honestly.

Just the fact that they had to go on at length about what they intended for people to take away from both Venat and Hermes in Endwalker Q/A sessions makes me feel like there are a lot of things they could've gone about explaining better in the story proper.

Like...it's obvious Venat is troubled by the contents of Meteion's report, but it's not obvious that it was a major driving factor in her decision to cause the sundering due to fearing the Ancients would meet the same end as the Nibirun...which ultimately ends up feeling really silly with how easily they're convinced life is still worth living at the end of the Omicron quests.

The whole thing comes off as rather asinine. To claim you intend one thing while providing an experience that very clearly illustrates another is.... special. The nature of the message is somehow even worse in the original JP localization of the game, versus the EN version's curiously altered dialogue.

To note; most other localizations do align with the JP version. There will always be a handful of areas where some creative wording is required simply due to certain terms/ideas not being possible to translate on a 1 for 1 basis, but the context provided generally winds up being the same.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I look forward to future videos from that channel. Wonder what they'll do next.

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Probably a variation on "Venat bad!" since it's from that camp of people we've seen all over story discussion since Endwalker came out.

The only reason they even consider these analyses necessary is because the community at large has been shouting down certain negative interpretations of characters despite there being ample basis for such. It's gotten ridiculous to a point of people citing misogny as one of the only reasons you could dislike Venat.

I personally think there is a problem when I feel like there is a huge disconnect between my own feelings and how my character or the cast at large is reacting to someone in the story (The stated example with Amon/Fandaniel being one of them), and I never really got that vibe anywhere prior to Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Britha

Probably a variation on "Venat bad!" since it's from that camp of people we've seen all over story discussion since Endwalker came out.

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You mad that not everyone loves someone who committed textbook genocide?

Well, you heard it here folks. Apparently not liking a character for very valid reasons means you're in a camp of evil boogiemen.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The only reason they even consider these analyses necessary is because the community at large has been shouting down certain negative interpretations of characters despite there being ample basis for such. It's gotten ridiculous to a point of people citing misogny as one of the only reasons you could dislike Venat.

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This is honestly a big issue for a lot of discussion about not only around female characters, but just in general. Don't like Venat? You're a misogynist. Don't like Hermes? You don't understand depression. Don't like the story? You must not have read it. It's tiring, and it's a big reason (amongst others) why I've just stopped wanting serious and genuine discussions with certain people. Whenever I see someone do this, it's a big red flag to not seek out common ground or rational discussion with that person as doing so is probably impossible.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Don't like Hermes? You don't understand depression.

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This one I can't figure out. Of all the things to use as a defense, why this? By doing so, they are essentially insinuating that depression inherently puts you on course to become a monster. Last I checked, nobody I know with depression has decided they want to go burn down a city block for no reason other than finding the people living there to be hard to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This one I can't figure out. Of all the things to use as a defense, why this? By doing so, they are essentially insinuating that depression inherently puts you on course to become a monster. Last I checked, nobody I know with depression has decided they want to go burn down a city block for no reason other than finding the people living there to be hard to deal with.

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This probably isn't the most charitable interpretation but I imagine it's because it's the easiest response and it comes out as a knee-jerk reaction to defend Hermes and the game in general, and that the Hermes defenders don't actually think about what they're saying beyond a surface level. It also allows them to shut down any criticism without actually arguing against the criticism itself, instead attacking the critic directly.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's gotten ridiculous to a point of people citing misogny as one of the only reasons you could dislike Venat.

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Venat is badly written and the implications of the story surrounding her have been lost to the writers.

People criticize Venat in order to make a point of what is *actually* happening in the story: The reason why people say Venat is genocidal is to in turn expose the writing as bad, because that's *obviously* not what they wanted to convey, but they did it anyway by implication.

However people now for some reason think that the goal of the writing team *should* have been to have Venat have been a villain all along.

Hating Venat seems to have gone from a proxy for hating the writing to an end in and of itself. Which is pretty weird. Accusations of misogyny naturally follow, equally as weird.

I believe there's more to it than that though.

I believe that people hate Venat out of spite against players who just mindlessly enjoy the story. Because to them, the writers aren't the main issue, it's other players, who enjoy the story and therefore in their mind implicitly encourage garbage. Your mommy burns in hell for her sins. I forgot that I actually wanted to argue about the writing.

This my interpretation is obviously also an insane take, but I quite enjoy it!

I think Endwalker is majorly flawed, but the blame is with the writers, not the playerbase and not with my own tastes. I am certain that a story that I would personally enjoy would *also* be enjoyed by the majority of players. And I think they would enjoy it even more.

Even if we assume her intentions and convictions were altruistic, the action taken as a result of those convictions should not, under any circumstances, be portrayed as heroic. Whether the character suffered as a result of those actions is also largely irrelevant, given the sheer scope of the crime committed. In this instance, even had the writers successfully conveyed what they intended, I don't think I would be onboard. There is never a justifiable reason for robbing people of their future.

Choosing not to share the information she had on Discount Lunatic Pandora is already a fairly egregious action unto itself. Adding the sundering to that, well.. You can probably see why I'm not the biggest fan of how things are handled. I don't really have a problem with the Venat character itself, only the way the narrative continuously tries to frame the numerous awful things she did as being "for the good of all." The Scions and their allies could at least have had a WTF moment when faced with the truth, but we didn't even get that. The scant few people in the know just let it slide.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Even if we assume her intentions and convictions were altruistic, the action taken as a result of those convictions should not, under any circumstances, be portrayed as heroic. Whether the character suffered as a result of those actions is also largely irrelevant, given the sheer scope of the crime committed. In this instance, even had the writers successfully conveyed what they intended, I don't think I would be onboard. There is never a justifiable reason for robbing people of their future.

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There is, if it's the only way to save the world from certain doom.

And that should have never been the story in the first place.

I'm talking about fundamental pillars of Endwalker's story that should have never been written the way they were.

That includes the timeloop and the introduction of Dynamis in the way that it was.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

There is, if it's the only way to save the world from certain doom.

And that should have never been the story in the first place.

I'm talking about fundamental pillars of Endwalker's story that should have never been written the way they were.

That includes the timeloop and the introduction of Dynamis in the way that it was.

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Had the doom been certain, you might've had a point. ....But it wasn't. The narrative shows us the ancients actually were capable of interacting with Dynamis, it shows us they were on the cusp of fully realized space travel, and it even shows us that Zodiark would've been capable of shielding the world from the end song for a vastly longer time, had he not been destroyed. Showing us all these things kinda torpedoed the crap out of the idea the ancients were helpless. It made it seem a lot like Venat withholding all that information probably contributed heavily to things getting as bad as they did. To make matters worse, we're also shown Emet-Selch and others doing pretty much whatever they want instead of serving only Zodiark/their people, up to and including the former trying to abandon the plan entirely and just live in the sundered world. Kinda destroyed the idea the ancients were completely lost to tempering.

To the rest of what you're saying, I agree with you. Several things were simply misconstrued and mishandled, and it didn't really begin with Endwalker. If you look back at the final patch of Shadowbringers, you'll notice the sudden shift toward jank.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Had the doom been certain, you might've had a point. ....But it wasn't. The narrative shows us that ancients actually are capable of interacting with Dynamis, it shows us they were on the cusp of fully realized space travel, and it even shows us that Zodiark would've been capable of shielding the world from the end song for a vastly longer time, had he not been destroyed. Showing us all these things kinda torpedoed the crap out of the idea the ancients were helpless. It made it seem a lot like Venat withholding all that information probably contributed heavily to things getting as bad as they did.

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Yes, you interpret the story and show where its holes lie, that's what I'm talking about.

You think about this narrative and world more than the writers themselves! Their intention was clearly that the reasons that Venat gives as to why she needs to be secretive and then later the Dynamis bs are sound.

I wonder how people would feel about Venat if she were physically ugly.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

I believe that people hate Venat out of spite against players who just mindlessly enjoy the story. Because to them, the writers aren't the main issue, it's other players, who enjoy the story and therefore in their mind implicitly encourage garbage. Your mommy burns in hell for her sins. I forgot that I actually wanted to argue about the writing.

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This is good point. Chara who do not hate the Venar can support guild point by hate the Venar. It is the revenge against all the forum paladin who is dare enjoy the story. Now forum paladin can not enjoy forum and guild will win.