A challenge. Make Bard more Bard.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I don't think you quiet understand the bold sentences in OP. As a matter of fact you missed the big picture almost entirely along with a few individuals.


I'll cut straight to the point. Consider the following suggestions;

Bard should take out musical instruments when playing songs.

Aion Bard was used as a reference only because. :hint: they use a musical instrument..

I never suggested changing the play style of Bard. The only idea suggested is giving songs instrumental animations like actually taking out an instrument to cast songs.


I can't elaborate this any clearer. lol

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Wouldn't that change the play style though? The only way I can see the adding instruments as a considerable change would be by adding an animation lock which we all hate. And even then, if we avoided such a thing by allowing movement during the cast/song, having a special instrument animation would still be taking away from damage time by putting our bows away. It would be a rather pointless feature since songs are for buffing and the bow is for damage. Unless of course they add damage-dealing songs which would change the existing dynamic like those you referenced in the Aion video. Either way, I don't know how they would make this an important change without making major changes to the existing bard play style.

But hey, that is what transitioning to ARR is all about so I have nothing against implementing instruments.

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Originally Posted by Sussis

Wouldn't that change the play style though? The only way I can see the adding instruments as a considerable change would be by adding an animation lock which we all hate. And even then, if we avoided such a thing by allowing movement during the cast/song, having a special instrument animation would still be taking away from damage time by putting our bows away. It would be a rather pointless feature since songs are for buffing and the bow is for damage. Unless of course they add damage-dealing songs which would change the existing dynamic like those you referenced in the Aion video. Either way, I don't know how they would make this an important change without making major changes to the existing bard play style.

But hey, that is what transitioning to ARR is all about so I have nothing against implementing instruments.

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This is really changing nothing at all..You already have to stop in order to cast magics, songs, or to use bow action skill abilities.

In all honesty, I don't see why Bard has even been attempted except to fill the job role for Archer. That said, there are a lot of connections between jobs and classes that are kind of weak...

Right now a Dragoon is merely a lancer who can jump high and do so with fire once per 15 minutes. The actual connections to the soul of a dragon are minimal. But, in a way, that's what one can expect from combat... The same is especially true of Bard. Heck, out of all jobs, Bard and Scholar would probably be the least combat defined if developed in any sort of realistic manner. By no means would that make them less interesting though. Far from it.

My point here is that the things separating Bards from archers is a very worldly skill-set, essentially lore, knowing the stories and emotions of people, eras, and events, and being able to express them (whether it be through instrument, song, re-enactment, or storytelling).

But how much of that can we get off a few buffing functions that are songs only in name? But, at the same time, do we really want our bards to be singing their way through every fight? Will our notes really be noticeably afflicting our enemies or improving our party combat coordination enough to afford the loss of a weapon user?

In the case that the whole of our RPG experience comes down to the fight itself, then such might be necessary. But personally, I'd much rather have a person be a bard through and through. I'd prefer to think of an RPG team as existing just as importantly around a campfire before a nighttime NM hunt, or when recovering after a series of hard fights.

In Bard's case this may take more complicated mechanics to take advantage of such things, a greater library of memorable story through our quests, and a character experience that's worth putting into a story to be told in more than just jest or reminisce. But I think that's where real job identity begins. It starts with the character development itself, and our job uniquely expresses that character. That's when you cease to be just a class (or one with 5 extra shiny new abilities) and a real job.

But, back to making Bard more Bard-like combat-specifically... Song could certainly have some really fun mechanics to play around with in combat. But... they'd be new too. Things like fitting the structure, environment, or situation of a fight, or the story surrounding it could be interesting. There's certainly no need to assume that we'd need to be out of combat to do so for the most part. We can sing as we shoot, as long as said shooting doesn't take up too much of our attention. It'd probably keep us from truly maxing out or basic single-target damage, but we needn't be take-it-or-leave-it singing fools when a bow is needed. And when we really want to capitalize on a song, we can take up an instrument and do so.

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

Oh mighty Rukkirii could you answer a humble question... from this old XI bard..
Will the instrument used be cosmetic (like the anvil my blacksmith has in this trousers) or will it be and actual equipped item??

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Hi Twiddle,

I apologize for the delay and that our lovely Rukkirii is out today so she's unable to deliver this news personally. However, as a fellow ol' bard, I felt obligated to deliver the following information to you guys!

There are currently no plans to implement instruments as items, but as mentioned earlier, we will be making it so a harp is taken out when a song action is selected and a musical piece is performed. Please note that this harp will not be a main arm item that you equip; it is just a part of the animation.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hi Twiddle,

I apologize for the delay and that our lovely Rukkirii is out today so she's unable to deliver this news personally. However, as a fellow ol' bard, I felt obligated to deliver the following information to you guys!

There are currently no plans to implement instruments as items, but as mentioned earlier, we will be making it so a harp is taken out when a song action is selected and a musical piece is performed. Please note that this harp will not be a main arm item that you equip; it is just a part of the animation.

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I think what a lot of us are wishing for is simple: more weapons like the Artemis Bow where an instrument is sort of built into the weapon. Then you don't need seperate items for instruments while still technically being in posession of one.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hi Twiddle,

I apologize for the delay and that our lovely Rukkirii is out today so she's unable to deliver this news personally. However, as a fellow ol' bard, I felt obligated to deliver the following information to you guys!

There are currently no plans to implement instruments as items, but as mentioned earlier, we will be making it so a harp is taken out when a song action is selected and a musical piece is performed. Please note that this harp will not be a main arm item that you equip; it is just a part of the animation.

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Yes, that is what I wanted. Thank you.

Weapon design is always its own issue. I can certainly live with this animation-outcome. :)

Will there be different harp designs for different bows? (I think that'd be kinda nifty-looking...)

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hi Twiddle,

I apologize for the delay and that our lovely Rukkirii is out today so she's unable to deliver this news personally. However, as a fellow ol' bard, I felt obligated to deliver the following information to you guys!

There are currently no plans to implement instruments as items, but as mentioned earlier, we will be making it so a harp is taken out when a song action is selected and a musical piece is performed. Please note that this harp will not be a main arm item that you equip; it is just a part of the animation.

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Timing is not a problem, I am happy for a reply. I know you guys must be running double time to get ready for the beta.

So part of the animation, that's good news.. at least i think so. Thank you for clearing things up... I do have another burning question, though it's more lore related then bard.. and i really don't want to derail this thread.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I think what a lot of us are wishing for is simple: more weapons like the Artemis Bow where an instrument is sort of built into the weapon. Then you don't need seperate items for instruments while still technically being in posession of one.

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So, kind of like a flute that's also a blow-pipe. :)