Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by aiqa

This continued "it's pointless to try balance things because there are some other far lesser issues, that wont get fixed by only fixing the worst issue" is not very convincing. The only thing you're doing is showing tanks (WAR) will still be completely fine if their most overtuned abilities are balanced better. Which shows there is no reason to keep bloodwhetting as is, besides god mode fantasies.

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You're twisting my words and interpreting maliciously.

Slowly down the cars to preserve the damaged road will not repair the road. Instead I've pressed that we need to repair the road so everyone can enjoy their car.
I never said "It's pointless to slow down the car because the road will remained damaged".

I try to put a focus on the real problem but go ahead, twist my words and be malicious. You'll experience a placebo effect until you realize the real problem that you're not pressing half your tools as a healer in dungeon, Bloodwhetting or not. This is why it's not the way.

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Originally Posted by Derio

WAR is the most played Tank. It is the most purchased job boosted on mogstation and has the most self sustain for OGCD on a tank. The job is super balanced. Majority of players do not want a WAR rework.

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Most played doesn't mean most balanced.
a DPS job can do 2x the damage of all DPS jobs, it would certainly be the most played and purchased job, doesn't make it balanced.

Warriors healing in AOE situations creates a unfun environment for healers, gameplay for the warrior shouldn't take away from the healer's gameplay, Warrior in single target still has a AOE heal with shielding and regen, has regens practically on every cooldown and more self healing ontop of that, the shortest invul ect.

I don't think we should be balancing based off play rate, usually a high play rate is a indicator of the job being over tuned.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't think we should be balancing based off play rate, usually a high play rate is a indicator of the job being over tuned.

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Id argue its more sign of braindeadness. Considering SMN is pretty weak but still the most played dps because its really really really easy.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Id argue its more sign of braindeadness. Considering SMN is pretty weak but still the most played dps because its really really really easy.

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It's a mix of both, Summoner in endwalker was at least the "meta" caster, due to how it's mobility was free, it did generally better then red mage and even with black mage for prog you'd prefer a job with a rez and mobility, over one where the group has to sometimes play around.

Obviously theirs a factor of ease of use (white mage is popular over astro for a reason) but I think job balance, also plays a massive factor in this.

Which I hope we can at least agree that a jobs play rate shouldn't be a reason why we shouldn't balance something... because like I said warrior might be fun for the person playing it but it sure isn't fun for any healer.

Warrior in raids is largely fine... I think it still has a bit too much healing i personally don't like how shake it off has a regen, It's short invul will make it a great pick, but it's currently fine utility wise and damage wise, I think for raids tank balance/gameplay is pretty on point outside of Dark Knight, but I think that job needs a rework anyway

The dev team seems to have a longstanding aversion to job nerfs. The problem is that once a job gains an action that is unbalanced, they're effectively grandfathered into that advantage for years. In the short term, upward balance seemingly makes players happy. But in the long run, you're left with the sense that if you don't like the top job in a given role, it's not worth investing in that role at all.

While a lot of the focus on Bloodwhetting is in dungeon content, it's certainly topical and causing frustration for players both within and outside the role. You wouldn't really lose anything major in exchange for having the self-heal apply only once per weaponskill. You wouldn't even have to change the description. And I think it's a relatively small concession to make in the name of restoring player faith in balance 'fairness'.

In terms of the broader 'design direction', tank mitigation and self-healing needs a more active approach. There are many heals that are just built into the rotations or freely available on demand. These should instead be conscious choices that you make. To do this, you need context-dependent heals, where the damage healed back depends on your current HP or on the amount of damage that you've recently taken. The healing actions themselves should be resource-gated so that you think about where you use them. And the timing should be important - ideally there should be a really narrow window in which you can use mitigation and healing to maximize the impact, similar to how action games use narrow iframe windows as defensive timing checks.

The one thing that I'm curious about is what the knock-on effect of rebalancing WAR would be. If the job wasn't already in a lot of players crosshairs from the lead in to Dawntrail, I strongly suspect GNB would be instead, as the perpetual tank DPS frontrunner and having a very robust defensive kit. I think if you addressed the balance around Shake vs. conditional (magic only) raidwide defensives, it would be a non-contest.

The only issue I have with WAR is that other tanks feel lesser when I play them.

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

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War is braindead other tanks are balanced (not you dark knight)

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Wars are great. Others tanks are weak and need improvement.

Improve the other tanks and ditch healers. Healing in this game is terrible.

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And I wonder why that would be?

Surely it wouldn't have anything to do with, atop their pruned DPS kits, they've been left with proportionately less and less of the party's healing to do (let alone engagement there from)?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I try to put a focus on the real problem but go ahead, twist my words and be malicious. You'll experience a placebo effect until you realize the real problem that you're not pressing half your tools as a healer in dungeon, Bloodwhetting or not. This is why it's not the way.

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What is the way, then, and how/why is it immune to any degradation from imbalance among tank jobs (or jobs in general)?

Lets say we amp healing requirements so that, even with a fully-geared Warrior played perfectly, healers have to hit all their oGCDs optimally to keep them up with only pre-shields/HoTs and between-pull heals.

Has that decreased the advantage of Warriors in dungeons, or merely made it all the more significant?

Has it made Bloodwhetting any less a disproportionate portion of Warrior's total mitigation in trash pulls relative to other tanks' short-CD? Has it made Bloodwhetting degrade optimizations elsewhere any less through just how huge merely having auto-crits readied for its window is?

My complaints about Bloodwhetting apply as a Warrior, as well. Its optimizations being solely a matter of auto-crits means that, if I were balanced, I'd no longer be able to hit higher peaks of sustain and/or damage by saving oGCDs for Bloodwhetting or prioritizing just raid buff usage with them, that Damnation has no synergy with my short-CD (via reflected damage) and that it and Equilibrium's synergy with any bonus healing is basically irrelevant compared to just one more auto-crit under Bloodwhetting.

The swap from healing from damage dealt to a flat heal per hit made the skill less interactive and more dull atop making it scale far better than any other AoE in the game (imagine if Orogeny was just Upheaval but per target, with no penalty) and therefore becoming nigh impossible to balance simultaneously for ST and AoE.
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Tl;dr: Yes, of course healers should be revamped; I don't think anyone here is arguing that healers would be fine if only Warrior's healing were reined in to reasonable levels. But gross imbalances in sustain and broken (unable to be balanced across multiple content types) scaling factors --not to mention the gameplay nerfs therefrom-- need to be addressed regardless.