About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Here, I'll repeat the math I used to come up with my initial figure. To make it easily divisible we'll assume a 48 minute DR run where nobody used an essence. I'm 1/24th of that run so my contribution counts for roughly 2 minutes. A Skirmisher essence represents a 20% increase in my contribution, so that's 24 seconds. I've shaved 24 seconds by using a skirmisher. If I have to farm more than 24 seconds for that Skirmisher it's lost time.

Now please do share the math that's feeding into your numbers, and tell me exactly what is incorrect about my approximation.

I'm giving you all yet another chance to directly address the numbers and logic behind what I'm saying. I'm ready to watch you all avoid responding to me and instead just devolve into talking about how wrong I am to each other.

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To start with your math is conforming to the assumption that nobody in that run used an essence, when in reality in a 48-minute run you more than likely had people pushing an essence. You're more accurately looking at upwards of 50-60 minutes without anyone using a fragment. Second of all Skirmisher accounts for an additional boost to critical hit rate so you're also flawed in this regard

Like I've said, it's a lot easier to farm for a pure essence in the event you're a DPS considering you can not only narrow the potential other essences you get quite significantly but because they're a whole lot more feasible to run with now costing 1 cluster instead of the typical 5, So let's use your flawed maths here and ignore any potential side effects:

The essence of the Fiendhunter boosts my damage by 50%, if we assume the run is a lenient 52 minutes with no essence, then you're looking at 50% for my contribution and not just the cute little 20%. Not only that but factoring in the fact I will have access to Dervish to contribute to the party. Duelist will have Lost Rend, then Elder you have the hidden effect of Cure IV being turned into an AoE Bravery for the party.

What I want to know is how does your 'mathematics' bring this, when the evidence and conclusion come to the contrary, ala 18~ minute run versus a 48-60~ minute run. Everyone using an essence has shaved off 30 minutes at the least. I legit need not provide any more mathematics than otherwise provide this.

It's ironic that you'd prance around with this 'you're wrong to each other' when the majority of your posts have been telling people they're wrong with very little in the way of proof or evidence.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

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Changing the number to 60 minutes makes your contribution 2.5 minutes, which only adds 6 seconds to the conclusion. I chose 48 because it's easily divisible, but none of the caveats you're adding change the result much at all. My numbers aren't flawed; they're approximations to create a baseline.

Changing your damage modifier to 50%; adding crit; increasing the time to 60 minutes; these don't equate to significant changes. The most pressing issue is the fact that you're only 1/24th of the contribution. That fact by itself means that anything you do to your damage alone will be insignificant to the end result.

Now you keep mentioning 18 minute runs, and I've already explained to you why cumulative gains don't translate to saved time for an individual using essences in DF. I get the cumulative gains even if I don't use an essence, so I don't need to farm one.

Edit: Based on how disappointing this thread has been, I feel compelled to give you some credit. You're actually trying to have a real discussion and address the figures I'm presenting; instead of just making vague, evasive little passive aggressive comments about how wrong I am, while ignoring everything I say. No matter how this turns out I'll leave here with a tiny bit of respect for you, for whatever that's worth.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Here, I'll repeat the math I used to come up with my initial figure...

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I get the cumulative gains even if I don't use an essence, so I don't need to farm one.

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Ah yes, this is what I call the "why the poor get poorer mentality", especially the second quote. Other already pointed out the flaw, but you didn't seem to get it so I'll repeat it for you, and it has nothing to do with math really:

- There is 24 people in the raid, even if one person brings the best of the best, it won't make a difference at all because just like you said, the "individual gain" is minimal. The difference is made when the other 23 also brings their A game. The more people do, the bigger benefit the party can reap as a whole. This is case #1

- On the contrary, yes just like you said if it's just you who go in naked, frankly it won't mean a damn. It becomes an issue when other 23 people also think like you, and the more people like you in the group, the worse the whole raid become. This is case #2

So why do I call it the "why the poor get poorer mentality"? It's the mindset of making excuse of not trying things yourself on the justification "my effort won't mean much anyway". It's like voting: "I just have one vote, won't make a difference anyway so why vote?" Good recipe to end up with a shit democracy I say. You are ABSOLUTELY correct in you second quote btw, and that's also EXACTLY why Communism during the cold war fail: I'm getting the same reward as everyone else in the society regardless of how much or little I do, so I only gonna do the minimum! AKA: case #2

What makes the difference is not the individual effort but the collective effort, but the collective effort can't exist without the each individuals doing their parts. So your "reason" is only valid if you're lucky enough to be in a party where you are the only, or one of the minority of leech in the party. Your excuse fall apart if you ever find yourself in company of liked mind ... ironic isn't it?



To other, I had come up with a very simple solution instead of preaching to brickwall: leave the raid. These days I use the first boss as a benchmark: if the LB hit more than half way of the third bar, or the boss enter his 2nd set of seasonal mercy mechanic, I'll simply leave. And I noticed this is becoming a (good) trend, I had tried to stay after the first boss in a few slow run, and I notice things get even slower than the first boss, checking player list and sure enough, a few people had left. Sure, I end up losing ~8 minutes on the first boss, but that's still a lot better than wasting 50min-60min trying to carry leeches.

And I believe once this become a popular trend, it will be a much more impactful effect than we're trying to preach anyway. In a group overpopulated with leech, once a few heavy hitter left they gonna feel it. They say they don't mind 50min+ minutes, let's them enjoy their 80-90min run once the essences people had left I say.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

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What you're saying isn't wrong, but it's kind of beyond the point.

Will DF DR be slower if everyone has that mindset? Yes. Does me using an essence actually change anyone's mindset? No. Will I get the benefit of everyone else's essences even if I don't use one myself? Yes. So, will I get through my relic faster if I don't spend time farming essences for DF DR? Yes.

My position isn't about right and wrong; it's about efficiency. I don't plan to continue doing Bozja after the relic so I don't really care if DF DR ends up being really slow in the long run. My goals for Bozja only involve getting my relic and leaving, so I'll do whatever makes that happen the fastest. ;)

I like how you say you are having a discussion with people, when you've already decided that you are right even before the conversation even began.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

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Considering you yourself are unsure of the weight of critical hit, I really don't support you as doing estimates or ballparks for this. Or anything for that matter.

This becomes a propagating issue, the more people not using an essence, the longer the runs, the more room for mistakes, and the greater the opportunity are for wiping. Regardless of your mindset, the fact of the matter is that taking into account all the variables you have a very poor outlook; even if you want to chalk it up to individual efficiency. The reality of the matter is, cumulative gains or not. You're comparing upwards of 50-minute runs against 18-minute runs. Whether you like it or not this is the reality of the situation.

I go into a DR run having farmed for essences and am accompanied by those without, experiencing a traumatically long run, and on the other hand, I can join a farm group, or even just a party and dramatically reduce the time taken - My contribution is their gain, and their contribution is my gain to where me farming for essences becomes a whole lot less diminishing.

I mean no disrespect by this comment but it is because of outlooks such as yours as to why on an individual level you could 'reasonably conclude' it to be inefficient. All you're doing here is trying to justify your lack of contribution. It's just self-sabotage to support it. As someone so eloquently put earlier; "No, using your numbers, it's more like if they added an item you could buy for 100k, but doing so rewards everyone with 10k at the end of DR. If all 24 people paid 100k, everyone would get 240k at the end of the run." - This in itself is a fantastic outlook.

If you gave a shred for either individual efficiency, or even collective efficiency which you so clearly don't, then you'd find farming essences and joining or creating premade would be a damnsight more efficient than this tragic charade that you're eagerly trying to justify.

I'm fortunate in that I'm more tolerable to what bad outtakes you're presenting. Some aren't, aka the thread, and realistically rightly so. I appreciate the topic of conversation that has been had. Nothing else is on offer, however.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What you're saying isn't wrong, but it's kind of beyond the point.

Will DF DR be slower if everyone has that mindset? Yes. Does me using an essence actually change anyone's mindset? No

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No, it's not beyond the point because it's EXACTLY the point. Like I said it's comparable to the mentality behind voting.

I also said it's a mentality thing, and game is just one venue or outlet where people can display their character. If there ever a moment in your life things doesn't go right for you, I hope you will spend a moment reflecting on today discussion because I somehow doubt this is the only aspect of your life you take on this approach.

Other than that, yes it's a game so it's not like we can do anything. Being a lazy and a leech is a hardly against the TOS even if you are openly admitting being one like you're doing. But I hope you don't mind other people calling you out with unpleasant moniker like the OP of this thread was doing.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I get the cumulative gains even if I don't use an essence, so I don't need to farm one.

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Right. You're fine getting collective gain from other people using essences but don't want to contribute to that collective.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

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I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't need to; the game already lets me queue without any essences, so my position is inherently justified. If you all want me to use an essence when I queue for DF you'll have to give me a reason... That's all I'm saying. Will my using an essence turn a 50 minute run into an 18 minute run? No.

I'm making a practical argument; not a moral one. I don't care about "what if everyone thought like you?" I can't control how other people think so why would I base any decision I make on that? It's pointless.

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Originally Posted by Fland

Right. You're fine getting collective gain from other people using essences but don't want to contribute to that collective.

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It's just less efficient for me to. I don't need to farm essences to benefit from collective gains so, practically speaking, why should I?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

No, it's not beyond the point because it's EXACTLY the point. Like I said it's comparable to the mentality behind voting.

I also said it's a mentality thing, and game is just one venue or outlet where people can display their character. If there ever a moment in your life things doesn't go right for you, I hope you will spend a moment reflecting on today discussion because I somehow doubt this is the only aspect of your life you take on this approach.

Other than that, yes it's a game so it's not like we can do anything. Being a lazy and a leech is a hardly against the TOS even if you are openly admitting being one like you're doing. But I hope you don't mind other people calling you out with unpleasant moniker like the OP of this thread was doing.

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This is a game. I'm an adult with a standard amount of common sense; I can read a situation and know when it's important to inconvenience myself for other people and when it's not. This game gives me no reason to care; no downside to showing up without an essence. Hell, even the community at large doesn't care; I've never been chewed out once for not popping an essence in DR, lol.

Instead of throwing yourself to the floor for others at every opportunity, learn to distinguish between important and unimportant forms of self-sacrifice. You'll be better off for it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's just less efficient for me to. I don't need to farm essences to benefit from collective gains so, practically speaking, why should I?

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Dunno, you'd still gain the benefit from collective gains if you just spam your 1-2-3 combo over and over instead of doing a proper rotation, or even better, target boss and autoattack. Why don't you do it?