What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

What? I am talking about how they self terminated after "fulfilling" their role. You know the big issue in the Elpis quest line.

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I hate to make it seem like I'm singling you out, but it wasn't as though these people are being fired from their jobs and then led into a pasture to be put to death. They decide for themselves when they have done all they feel they can do for the good of the world and that's when they step down and allow someone else to fill their previous role. It seems that the main school of thought was that this was not something to be sad about but something to be celebrated as the natural end of a full life. Obviously we can see that people do experience grief over someone's choosing to pass on but...that's not anything close to being callously snuffed out against your will because you'd run your course.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s not throwing away their lives though. That’s them content with their life and moving on which is one of the main themes of the story. They see the future in reincarnation. Keeping in mind they live for thousands upon thousands of years as it is, it seems there’s no winning with some people. They either stay immortal and grow stagnant and become like the plenty or they see value in reincarnation and they’re marked as throwing their lives away. Which is it?

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Simple, live till the last breath. Struggle and strive until your life's candle burns out. However, we are all arguing philosophies at this point.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sorry but where in Shb did they ever say that Zodiark was a benevolent primal and that Hydaelyn was just consuming souls? Because that literally sounds like youre twisting the lore to fit with your argument.

One, the majority of the Ancients were too stubborn and set in their ways to preserve their perfect world by willingly sacrificing their own. I doubt the Convocation wouldve even seriously given reason to believe that dynamis was the cause and its harbinger layed at the ends of the universe. This was shown to us by unsundered Emet Selch a proper representative scoffing at those ideas till he saw with his own eyes the events set into motion.

Two, Venat did manage to tell others about the truth which is where the anti-Zodiark group even comes from.

Three, nowhere in the game did it showed Hyadealyn consuming souls. The only thing we've seen is her granting her blessing on those strong enough to hear her words.

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They literally confirmed in the recent live letter that Hydaelyn consumed the souls of her summoners completely until there was nothing left. Zodiark only did what they asked of him. Also the sacrifices were done willingly, it wasn’t them picking and choosing people against their will. They willingly sacrificed themselves to save the planet and it’s people. How is that stubborn? It didn’t matter if Emet believed, as we saw in Elpis he has to believe and investigate due to his duty to the star. Not only this, he knew he was mind wiped. All it would take is Venat bringing him up to speed on what happened.

It’s not confirmed whether Venat told her followers the truth. The only insight we have actually, points to them not knowing the whole truth. The anamnesis dialogue where they tell Venat they will mourn her passing makes it seem like they didn’t know their souls would be consumed.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Simple, live till the last breath. Struggle and strive until your life's candle burns out. However, we are all arguing philosophies at this point.

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Do we have any evidence of an Ancient dying of age though? If they were effectively immortal then…there wouldn’t be a last breath outside of one of them being killed by a creation. Like what exactly are we arguing here. Are haurchefant Ysayle Papalymo etc in the wrong for not striving to the end and instead cutting their own lives short?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sorry but where in Shb did they ever say that Zodiark was a benevolent primal and that Hydaelyn was just consuming souls? Because that literally sounds like youre twisting the lore to fit with your argument.

One, the majority of the Ancients were too stubborn and set in their ways to preserve their perfect world by willingly sacrificing their own. I doubt the Convocation wouldve even seriously given reason to believe that dynamis was the cause and its harbinger layed at the ends of the universe. This was shown to us by unsundered Emet Selch a proper representative scoffing at those ideas till he saw with his own eyes the events set into motion.

Two, Venat did manage to tell others about the truth which is where the anti-Zodiark group even comes from.

Three, nowhere in the game did it showed Hyadealyn consuming souls. The only thing we've seen is her granting her blessing on those strong enough to hear her words.

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I am guessing he means the souls used to make Hyadelyn which were used up in her creation. Were as Zodiark doesn't seem to have actually seem to have consumed the souls used in his construction there still there and still distinct.

The ancients returning to the star didn't value life less than a knight of Ishgard or warrior of Azim Steppe going to battle knowing full well they can die there. All and none are lives thrown away.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Do we have any evidence of an Ancient dying of age though? If they were effectively immortal then…there wouldn’t be a last breath outside of one of them being killed by a creation. Like what exactly are we arguing here. Are haurchefant Ysayle Papalymo etc in the wrong for not striving to the end and instead cutting their own lives short?

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Ysayle, Horse, and Papalymo all died in struggle, so they lived to the last. Whereas pre-calamity ancient could finish some paperwork, then decide that's all they can do and decide to put a .44 caliber hole in their aether, not living and self terminating.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Ysayle, Horse, and Papalymo all died in struggle, so they lived to the last. Whereas pre-calamity ancient could finish some paperwork, then decide that's all they can do and decide to put a .44 caliber hole in their aether, not living and self terminating.

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Ah, so your problem is that the Ancients didn't suffer enough in death? Would it have been more acceptable if they had chosen to fling themselves into a pit of vicious monsters instead of choosing when and where they wished to pass on peacefully?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Ysayle, Horse, and Papalymo all died in struggle, so they lived to the last. Whereas pre-calamity ancient could finish some paperwork, then decide that's all they can do and decide to put a .44 caliber hole in their aether, not living and self terminating.

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Again though, my question remains. If they are effectively immortal when is a “right” time to die? Apparently it’s wrong for the plenty people to get bored and start massacring everyone with Ra-La, but now it’s wrong for the ancients preventing themselves from getting that far?

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Ah, so your problem is that the Ancients didn't suffer enough in death? Would it have been more acceptable if they had chosen to fling themselves into a pit of vicious monsters instead of choosing when and where they wished to pass on peacefully?

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Weird take away, but no. My issue is them literally throwing away their lives prior to calamity, via self termination. Furthermore, the fact this irony that the Unsundered long so for their loved ones and the lives they had prior when they used to do this flies over so many people's head in these arguments is frustrating.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They literally confirmed in the recent live letter that Hydaelyn consumed the souls of her summoners completely until there was nothing left. Zodiark only did what they asked of him. Also the sacrifices were done willingly, it wasn’t them picking and choosing people against their will. They willingly sacrificed themselves to save the planet and it’s people. How is that stubborn? It didn’t matter if Emet believed, as we saw in Elpis he has to believe and investigate due to his duty to the star. Not only this, he knew he was mind wiped. All it would take is Venat bringing him up to speed on what happened.

It’s not confirmed whether Venat told her followers the truth. The only insight we have actually, points to them not knowing the whole truth. The anamnesis dialogue where they tell Venat they will mourn her passing makes it seem like they didn’t know their souls would be consumed.

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Nowhere in the recent Q&A did Yoshi-P stated that Hyadaelyn/Venat consumed the souls completely till there was nothing left.
Here's the link to the worded Q&A if you dont believe me https://novacrystallis.com/2022/02/f...dmap-detailed/

Unless were talking about the initial summoning then probably yeah considering the nature of the summoning. But the point still stands that she wasnt going around consuming souls of the sundered shards. Otherwise there wouldnt be a lifestream and the recycling of sundered souls wouldnt have happened.

Also lets not forget what was actually asked in that interview:

Question- "Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it?"
Answer - "Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis. Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing."

So ok looks like the Ancients or at least a good portion of them DID knew of Meteion and the song of oblivion....but the Convocation still chose to preserve their "perfect world" in a futile attempt to keep what they had. This is why I was asking you guys that question earlier.....if the sundering didnt happen and Zodiark was the only one there, what would've that seriously accomplished.

Anyway people here need to go back and look at that Q&A again because it seriously looks like a lot of folk are just overly reading into things.