Interesting note: With current SpS values, you can do F3 > 4xF4 > B3 while under Ley Lines. This is obviously a PPS increase over 2xF4 > F1 > 2xF4. Additionally, as a result of skipping the F1, I believe you don't need two MP ticks to pull it off. If AF3 falls off while casting B3 and you're at default Piety, you might cancel the cast, but I forget if that's true or not. So you get to skip at least 1, usually 2 GCDs (mandatory F1, sometimes T1) per Eno rotation, and you can do this twice per Ley Lines. However, This tends to create a problem where you wrap up your 20s Eno before Eno is back up, since you were going so fast. Does anyone have thoughts/opinions on whether it's better to maintain the same rotation while under LL or if it's better to try and eke out a PPS increase at the cost of a tight struggle to have Eno be off CD when it's needed again?
Edit: I believe if you pop LL at the beginning of a 20s rotation, you can safely do 4xF4 inside a 15s rotation. However, if you've made it to a 20s rotation without using LL, Eno will be up at the end of the 20s rotation regardless.
Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS
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08-21-2016, 08:02 AMAloise
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08-21-2016, 02:35 PMAikaalI'm not gonna completely say you are 100% wrong but I do see a lot of flaws and it does raise me concerns. The PPS numbers I'll post are based on my stats (1162 SS, 2.19 and 2.63 GCD 1.86 and 2.23 GCD on LL)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloise
The first I see is that you're probably not using Thunder to get that result and to me it is like a DPS lost. I am assuming a lot of BLMs favor Sharpcasting Fire 1 when in reality Sharpcasting T1 is superior. While T1 has a higher chance of proc (47% vs 40% of F1) a T3P has a 57% chance of proc. You never never have to cast Thunder 1 in the fight! Thunder 1 + Thunder 3 Proc (With clipping 3 DoTs) is a PPS of 206,16. Fire 1 + Fire 3 Proc is a PPS of 181,23. Thunder is the winner there! Also, you CAN Sharpcast a Thunder 3 Proc for an extra Thunder 3 Proc (PPS of 292,47) At a GCD of 2,63, my Fire IV PPS is 201,22. This means that even if you're forced to clip, a Sharpcast Thunder 1 + Thunder 3 Proc is still superior than our vanilla Fire IV. Leylines does favor Fire IV more (PPS of 237,21 for F3 vs 242,74 for Sharp T1 + T3P... Thunder still wins) Worst, at faster cast rate, if you end up casting your Thunder 3 Proc when there's 1 second left on your proc, then there's a really good chance you've gained a 4th DoT (+42 Potency)
The second issue I see is that your second cycle with one MP tick will result with you being OOMed after that B3. This can be work on by adding Piety to get a B1. Then again, T1 > B1 so it's a really big DPS lost.
The third issue I see is that you can easily break your rotation by needing a 4th cycle. The 4th cycle of Enochian can be pretty handy on situations where you can't attack anything but for now the BLM just don't have a proper rotation that optimizes 4 cycles of Enochian. The only time its good to have Enochian if when the boss becomes invulnerable in 15-20 seconds and you're at your 3rd cycle. It is likely a lesser DPS loss to have a 4th cycle than gamble and lose your next Enochian for 40 seconds.
And lastly I would love if everyone that read the post see THIS. It is likely that you won't always have the entire 30 seconds of your Enochian because a lot of the fights, you'll have mechanics which target a random DPS. This DPS could be you. You can't assume you won't be the target. If we completely disregard Thunder and we simply calculate with LL on my Spell Speed 4xF4 versus 2xF4 + F1 + 2xF4. 4xF4 does win with a PPS of 237,31 while 2xF4 + F1 + 2xF4 + F3P (40%) is 228,86. It is a gain of roughly 8,45 PPS (Cast on tooltip is at 2.23 for F3 and 1.86 for F1 + F3P with LL at 1162 Spell Speed)
In my opinion, a rotation that focus entirely on F4 is risky and wrong. Fire IV is overrated or Thunder is underrated or it is a mix of both. Even since I got my job that makes my schedule impossible to raid and I've lost most of my interest in the game leaving me little motivation to release what I've figured, I've been using an opener that implies a Sharpcast Thunder 1. Many people can agree or disagree with that, there's several options of openers with BLM and it does depend on the situation.
I haven't played with Piety but I do believe having few Piety from melds is a good option.
I currently have figured an opener which I can enter 6 Fire IV + Thunder 3 Proc + Fire 1 + a Fire 3 Proc (40%) all in one RS with my Spell Speed. I have not math the PPS of that opener but it does involve having a Blizzard 3 as the starting spell with a Thunder 1 right after (Sharpcast prepull buff) As we all know, buffs are multiplicative so if you have a Bard and a Ninja with your Enochian and your RS your spells does have a multiplier of 1,6632 Potency. If you have a 10% Balance, the multiplier goes to 1,82952. This does not include the potion.
The core rotation should always be F3 > F4x2 > F1 > F4x2 > F3P (40%) > B3 > T1 (B1 if you have a DoT already up) > B4 This is not an absolute rotation since Thunderclouds can't be predicted. F3 > 3 GCDs > F1 > 3 GCDs > B3 > ... Ultimately if you're pretty lucky with Thundercloud Procs, you could do a rotation like this : F3 > T3P > F4 > F4 > F1 > F4 > F4 > T3P > F3P > B3 > Swift B4. On my Currently Spell Speed, after the B3, 23.66 seconds has passed. If its my 30 seconds cycle then I am fine. If it's my 25 seconds cycle then I need to swiftcast that B4. If it's my 20 seconds rotation, I'll simply won't have Enochian on F3P and B3...
Let's face it. Since Astral Fire is 12 seconds, we have the EZPZ rotation of all jobs. I just can't compare the Dragoon Rotation to the Black Mage one. So it is pretty easy to be a decent BLM. What I do believe that puts the good BLMs apart from the average ones is the proc and thunder management. Astral Fire stacks shouldn't be a management issue also.
If anyone prefers to say Thunder isn't worth and they'd rather not implement it in their rotation... it's their choice and I won't force my opinion on others. Its the same for those BLMs that still think Det is superior than Spell Speed (Someone actually kicked me from a Linkshell because I said Spellspeed was better on a BLM than Determination which is quite hilarious if you ask me) The reason why I focused on saying Thunder is and underrated spell by the BLM community and its not something personal on you Aloise but it does raise a really big red flag that LL F3 > 4xF4 > B3 is being considered better (to me)
You're probably correct but if Enochian is ready... it is likely that your Sharpcast is also ready and delaying it feels like a huge waste considering its stronger potency than spamming F4. The 4th cycle should really be use only when you know your boss will become invulnerable and casting Enochian means you'll lose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloise
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08-21-2016, 04:29 PMAloiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
I've spent at least a few afternoons staring at spreadsheets trying to math out different aspects of the BLM rotation, and I'll say this: Trying to work with Thunder is like trying to kill a Hydra. The probabilistic maths involved with it are absolutely killing me. I'm have a very hard time pinning down weighted PPSes assuming some arbitrary number of procs allowed. I believe that if you assume you can only ever get 1 proc, a non-Sharpcasted T1 is on average a PPS loss. Assuming 2 at most, I believe it's a PPS gain but my grasp on probabilities rapidly begins to fall apart at that point. For reference, I'm weighting the average PPS across all relevant GCDs by the chance that that specific amount of procs happens, then summing (I believe is the proper thing to do) all weighted potencies to get a "true" potency. Obviously as the number of procs tends to infinity, then casting the PPS Thunder approaches some number mildly less than the PPS of a pure T3 proc, but definitely higher than F4. However, I'm not sure about the space between 1 proc and an infinite amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
Edit: This all works under the assumption that you get a fast MP tick and don't need to fill, which is its own probabilistic mess. In general though, I find myself casting T1 less and less as I seem to get fast ticks quite often, and with 310 Piety I'm pretty much always smashing B4 right after B3. -
08-22-2016, 12:09 AMAikaalYou'd be correct to assume the maths of Thunder is a mess considering it's a DoT spell so it gets a bit more from Spell Speed and we stack it like no one ever was :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Aloise
I also have a question. You are betting on the quick MP tick which is based on luck because you can't control the server ticks while you say Thunder is luck based. That's pretty much the same thing. The only problem if you wait for 2 seconds for example for that MP tick is that your B3 is 176.4 Potency. 1.86 GCD (for me) + 2 seconds delay = a PPS of 45,70. B3 + T1 is a PPS of 115,16 with an extra bonus of a proc chance of 46.8559% exactly. So anything that involves casting B3 and being OOM and wait for a tick is a really bad idea. I did just check if you do the double 4xF4 with initially full MP that you'll be fine At least, you'll never be able to convince me the risk is worth it especially you need to be on the Leylines the entire time.
I'll also point an example that happened to me in the past back in 2.4 crafting. Back then you needed 1 Piece by Piece + 4 Careful Synth II to complete a craft so it was 5 steps. You could also use a "riskier" rotation and have 1 Piece By Piece + 2 Rapid Synth + 1 Careful Synth II to complete the craft. Rapid Synth is 80% chance so you had a chance to fail and if it happened you'd have to finish the item in 5 steps. Most the time however it required 4 steps and it made it easier to HQ. Adding RNG was beneficial and it kinda feels the same on Thunder right now.
You can be defeatist and say you'll never get procs on Thunder I or Thunder 3 Procs. Thunder 3 Proc willl always be a superior spell than Fire IV regardless the situation. Fire IV is 529.2 on a 3 Second GCD. Thunder 3 Proc is 745.5 Potency on a 2.5 GCD. No matter how you see it, it is 216.3 Potency higher. 0.5 second shorter to cast. Even if you clip 5 DoTs, it would be 535.5 Potency, it would still be 6.3 Potency higher but still 0.5 second faster. Spamming a Thunder 3 Proc right after you got one is pretty silly so you do need to keep track of that buff and that DoT you have but the BLM rotation is pretty silly and easy to begin with. Even if you can't math it out at 100%, Thunder will always come on top. Thunder III Proc is 56.96% chance of at least getting a new proc. The odds are good enough that it is worth to use the spell and not ignore it.
You also forgot that our Enochian is better with 3 cycles. Doing double FireIVx4 results of needing a 4th cycle. It would worth to constantly have it if we could do it while keeping Thunder and it won't happen lol. You might also think when you'll have enough Spell Speed to do F3 > F4x4 > B3 all the time is better and by lasting 15 seconds per cycle that 4 cycle will be the way to go. Unfortunately in reality it will never. You'll have to deal with mechanics, you'll lose 1 second and it will screw you completely.
http://imgur.com/S0JARSk There is a reason why this picture is out. It will be bound to happen that one day that one AoE will be centered on your Leylines and it's quite frustrating to deal with it but its the reality. That's like asking a monk to hit 100% of his positional on a fight like T11 for example. It can be possible but the odds are that you'll eventually miss a few because you're gonna get hit by a mechanic and you won't be able to move much.
You can also say that you can do it because you farm the raid tier at the moment but that kind of mentality would make the player a weak raider. Your goal is to get to farm the raid tier and before that you'll need to clear the content and in raid content there's no DPS wall or check until you hit the enrage. The moment you hit an enrage wall is the time you need to have few strats that implies a bigger risk for the raid for a DPS gain. Until then, it is always better to play safer and practice the mechanics. There are players that exists that deal insane DPS but they don't have that raider mentality and those players aren't in top tier raid groups. Most the time they'll be in situation where the BLM will dislike the idea of using Apocastasis or Eye for an Eye because it is an offGCD so you lose time for DPS. I can tell you in progression it was well worth all the Apocastasis on the Main Tank on A4S :p
I do plan on making a compilation of openers Monday. I do think its time to update that because Spell Speed does open new openers and I'll show my concerns on it but anyone is free to use double F4 on LL if they desire like any BLM is free to stack Determination over Spell Speed. I do have to leave for the day so I'll bid you farewell for now :) -
08-22-2016, 02:12 PMLunafreya
Got my black khan relic today and I was wondering what my gear set and melds should be. So far I have Yafaemi head, yafaemi body, lore belt, lore boots, lore hands, lore rings X2, and lore earings. I need to replace two proto midan accessories with either midas savage or lore. Can anyone give me the best set? Should I change my head gear?
lores are all 240 -
08-23-2016, 02:15 AMMaero
Spell Speed if you can, followed by Crit.
I am still using a few crafted pieces because do not have savage gear and switching to lore i would either loose too much spell speed or accuracy.
I have not seen Yafaemi head piece but believe the Augmented lore piece is better.
Perhaps link your gear set so we can help you out. Ariyala i use all the time when i want to determine melds, for all my classes
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/
@ Aikaal, your back now? :)
That picture i laughed so much, and it is so true..... -
08-23-2016, 07:40 AMAikaalKinda :< not really playing at the moment. Chilling around being a filthy casual because I can't find myself grind 4 bosses for 3-4 weeks and then do nothing the next 3 months after lol. Not in a raid group because who wants to raid with a guy that works 7 days a week from 10PM to 8AM EST lol. Having the next week off is kinda nice however xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Maero
I do feel an update is required because we got that Astral Fire duration change and with the spell speed we can aim for a different opener so its worth the time.
I occasionally got pleant surprises on DF Expert when people say they know me and I feel honored about it xD But I haven't even touch A6S to A8S although I've smashed the A8S with accuracy cap at with petty gear lol. I've yet to get a 240 weapon which I guess will change with 3.8 lol
As Maero mentioned, Spell Speed is priority followed by Crit. I don't know the exact values but I goQuote:
Originally Posted by Lunafreya
Accuracy Cap > Weapon Damage > Int > Spell Speed > Crit > Determination
I'd avoid Determination at all cost. I would much prefer an item with more crit and lesser spell speed than a spell speed and determination item.
If I were to make a BiS A8S build, I'd go for http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VDIC I really dislike the Det on the Midan Weapon but higher weapon damage lol -
08-23-2016, 10:26 AMzuzu-bq
Hello there fellow black mages! I've been Scholar main since I started playing but always loved having BLM as my primary DPS job. I've always stalked this thread and been recently thinking on rerolling to BLM. Hope I can follow the discussions here!
Also regarding the 4 Fire IV over LL, I usually only do it if I had just refreshed Enochian, just to not waste my Sharp Cast. Also depends on the boss because its not a very safe rotation since you stay in the edge of casting Blizzard III later on. But I think its a valid and nice thing to do sometimes. This can also screw your GCD orders, so I'm special careful even thinking about doing that. But hey, feels good to do it! -
08-23-2016, 11:48 AMLunafreyaNo idea how to link my set but here it is http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/9563483/Quote:
Originally Posted by Maero
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08-24-2016, 01:51 AMMaero
There is a save option at the bottom of the page Luna :)
Your accuracy is very low, like miss attacks low, spell speed is not bad but ideally 1000+ is what you should be aiming for
You are on the right track though, and with more melds you should be good to go.