Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Dude is counting leaving his character logged on 24/7 AFK as playtime lol

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you're free to look up their name on that site if you think they spent it in limsa
>Brynhildr
nvm, actual projection

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

you're free to look up their name on that site if you think they spent it in limsa
>Brynhildr
nvm, actual projection

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If he's not AFK then the implication is worse, no? Expansion cycles are about two years and we're still a few months off the next one. That's gotta be more than 12hrs a day on this game assuming he plays every day. What do you even do?

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Originally Posted by hobostew

If he's not AFK then the implication is worse, no? Expansion cycles are about two years and we're still a few months off the next one. That's gotta be more than 12hrs a day on this game assuming he plays every day. What do you even do?

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I don't necessarily need to be actively doing something in game to see that stuff as I have access to the novice network.
That's completely unrelated to the topic anyways.

To provide an example of this playing out at endgame, I need not look further than every Tower run I've done. In every single one I get tank busted as a DPS in the first two fights. Why? Because tanks are either being paste eaters or the healers are on the floor or not in the area code. This is level 80, last patch content yet players can not do the basics and by extension ruin my experience.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

To provide an example of this playing out at endgame, I need not look further than every Tower run I've done. In every single one I get tank busted as a DPS in the first two fights. Why? Because tanks are either being paste eaters or the healers are on the floor or not in the area code. This is level 80, last patch content yet players can not do the basics and by extension ruin my experience.

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I don't know, that sounds a bit more fun compared to the normal queue in, get to the final boss, exit.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

If he's not AFK then the implication is worse, no? Expansion cycles are about two years and we're still a few months off the next one. That's gotta be more than 12hrs a day on this game assuming he plays every day. What do you even do?

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Why is the implication worse? What someone else does with their time is none of your business tbh. I spend a lot of time on the game, probably around 9-10 hours a day.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

To provide an example of this playing out at endgame, I need not look further than every Tower run I've done. In every single one I get tank busted as a DPS in the first two fights. Why? Because tanks are either being paste eaters or the healers are on the floor or not in the area code. This is level 80, last patch content yet players can not do the basics and by extension ruin my experience.

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I've ran it multiple times every week since it came out. I have only seen this happen once.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I've ran it multiple times every week since it came out. I have only seen this happen once.

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If only all of us were as lucky.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

If only all of us were as lucky.

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Most of us are. Were you one of those tanks perhaps? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Most of us are. Were you one of those tanks perhaps? :rolleyes:

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Nope, not ran it as a tank yet. Once as a Ninja, the rest as Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

To provide an example of this playing out at endgame, I need not look further than every Tower run I've done. In every single one I get tank busted as a DPS in the first two fights. Why? Because tanks are either being paste eaters or the healers are on the floor or not in the area code. This is level 80, last patch content yet players can not do the basics and by extension ruin my experience.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Nope, not ran it as a tank yet. Once as a Ninja, the rest as Machinist.

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Maybe don't spend so much time in melee as mch?

The tank buster auto targets whomever is 2nd on aggro if your tank is on the floor. So if your tank is on the floor and you are good at your job you get got.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Most of us are. Were you one of those tanks perhaps? :rolleyes:

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Man I wish I was one of the most of us then I guess because I see tanks eat dirt or take out other players in tower all the time

Ran it 9 times in one weekend and in nearly all of them Hansel & Gretel was a game of "will the tanks actually separate the bosses this time?"

I ninja tanked one of them til I died twice - in two separate runs - once because a tank died and the third tank just... never picked the boss up and once I had the boss just ??? turn to me and tankbuster me out of nowhere?? idk if I just pulled hate at the wrong time or what but it was a run where one tank had both bosses on them and the one I wasn't even attacking just decided it had had enough I guess, idk

Also got to nin tank boss 3 for like, 4 whole % at the end because the meteors took out half the raid and ALL of the tanks, which was actually pretty awesome purely because my WHM friend managed to keep me alive until a real tank got picked off the ground

Also got to play ping pong hate as a nin with my mch friend on the final boss once, I think also because a tank died because both of us were very alarmed to suddenly be taking boss autos

ALSO got straight murdered by a tank on the last boss once, because they moved directly on top of me with that big tank aoe, where I was standing completely by myself behind the boss, RIGHT at the end of the timer for it, because. idk he just had to be there I guess. or something.

Honestly Tower is probably one of my favorite raids in the game just because of the fights and the music, but man it feels like the tanks ARE part of the boss fights half the time. x.x

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

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I would normally ask if it's on both bosses but at this point I'm just tired of even vaguely entertaining the idea that you're being truthful in your complaints. There is no way EU is so drastically different to NA. If it was then good NA players whose internet can manage being on EU without issues would be commonly known to play to EU. But they're not. Why? Because all your claims about the armies of bad players is cow poop.

You're either an incredibly fussy person who is in the habit of making mountains out of molehills or you're a troll.

Again not saying no one has the right to be irritated by bad players, I get irritated by them too...but to say that things are as bad as frequently as OP says is fiction. For me to agree with OP would mean agreeing with the "hurr durr stupid Americans" stereotype and frankly I'm not snobbish enough to do that.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I would normally ask if it's on both bosses but at this point I'm just tired of even vaguely entertaining the idea that you're being truthful in your complaints. There is no way EU is so drastically different to NA. If it was then good NA players whose internet can manage being on EU without issues would be commonly known to play to EU. But they're not. Why? Because all your claims about the armies of bad players is cow poop.

You're either an incredibly fussy person who is in the habit of making mountains out of molehills or you're a troll.

Again not saying no one has the right to be irritated by bad players, I get irritated by them too...but to say that things are as bad as frequently as OP says is fiction. For me to agree with OP would mean agreeing with the "hurr durr stupid Americans" stereotype and frankly I'm not snobbish enough to do that.

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Well for your curiosity in Hansel and Gretel if a tank dies and you get aggro which ever one you have aggro on will buster you. Knave of Hearts auto targets tanks for buster, but if one is dead second in aggro to the party's tank gets targetted.
I am also quite taken aback by being called liar. I might be many things, but a liar I am not. I pride myself on being truthful. But I guess if I disagree with you I am both a troll and a liar right? This is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I am also quite taken aback by being called liar. I might be many things, but a liar I am not. I pride myself on being truthful. But I guess if I disagree with you I am both a troll and a liar right? This is part of the problem.

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You know it's not just me who doesn't think you're being honest, right? I'm one of a long list of players who don't believe you. My last post if FAR from the first instance of someone not believing you and being very blatant about it as well.

And I love how you just never offer an explanation as to why my experience of DF is so different to yours. But I suppose you don't want to go into the realms of possibly insulting an entire country just to prove your point. But it could also be because...you have no explanation to offer.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You know it's not just me who doesn't think you're being honest, right? I'm one of a long list of players who don't believe you. My last post if FAR from the first instance of someone not believing you and being very blatant about it as well.

And I love how you just never offer an explanation as to why my experience of DF is so different to yours. But I suppose you don't want to go into the realms of possibly insulting an entire country just to prove your point. But it could also be because...you have no explanation to offer.

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Not a country, no. I am extremely patriotic. But NA refers to a region made up of multiple countries. I can only speak about NA because I've only played in NA. EU might have its issues, but I do not know them as I don't play on EU. Many other posters have backed up and added to experiences I have had in my 6 years of playing. But, no I am a troll because I dare to say things aren't alright.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not a country, no. I am extremely patriotic. But NA refers to a region made up of multiple countries. I can only speak about NA because I've only played in NA. EU might have its issues, but I do not know them as I don't play on EU. Many other posters have backed up and added to experiences I have had in my 6 years of playing. But, no I am a troll because I dare to say things aren't alright.

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But many players who don't believe you also play on NA, it's not just EU players who think you're full of it.

And really I'm more inclined to believe the people whose experience of DF is similar to my own because I don't think there is any special nationality or culture for creating a large population of very bad players to the point that you claim.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I would normally ask if it's on both bosses but at this point I'm just tired of even vaguely entertaining the idea that you're being truthful in your complaints. There is no way EU is so drastically different to NA. If it was then good NA players whose internet can manage being on EU without issues would be commonly known to play to EU. But they're not. Why? Because all your claims about the armies of bad players is cow poop.

You're either an incredibly fussy person who is in the habit of making mountains out of molehills or you're a troll.

Again not saying no one has the right to be irritated by bad players, I get irritated by them too...but to say that things are as bad as frequently as OP says is fiction. For me to agree with OP would mean agreeing with the "hurr durr stupid Americans" stereotype and frankly I'm not snobbish enough to do that.

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You do realize though there’s a lot of people that have agreed with op and have also given their own personal experiences,myself included. I don’t really think op is lying, because what do they have to gain for lying? They’re trying to be truthful it seems to get the word out.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You do realize though there’s a lot of people that have agreed with op and have also given their own personal experiences,myself included. I don’t really think op is lying, because what do they have to gain for lying? They’re trying to be truthful it seems to get the word out.

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I get that, but they are also wildly exaggerating certain claims. If they are having sooo many problems, maybe the issue isn't other people. That's where I'd put my money.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I don’t really think op is lying

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Maybe not lying, but probably exaggerating.

Ever heard of the term "brain dead"? No content in this game could ever possibly be described as that, and yet people use it any way to describe what they feel is easy content.

Either way, all it shows is that people have different experiences, let alone different values and different priorities. So what might seem a problem to a group of people might not be for others.

Call it a "culture of enabling" if you want, but if people don't see it as a problem, then it's not a problem. That said, just because people don't see certain things as a problem, doesn't mean they don't see anything as a problem. It just depends on the situations.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But many players who don't believe you also play on NA, it's not just EU players who think you're full of it.

And really I'm more inclined to believe the people whose experience of DF is similar to my own because I don't think there is any special nationality or culture for creating a large population of very bad players to the point that you claim.

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I am from the EU and I know that there are trash players who are intentionally trolling you. I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally, the fact remains that they are way too bad and they are not sprouts.

For example, today, as I was levelling my sch, doing Dohn Mheg. For the first time I had a party that failed the dps check at the last boss. And I have done that dungeon more than 40 times. It is not that they couldn't cross, they did, around the same time as me. At our next attempt, lb was used because oh well, pressing buttons in a coordinated way requires too much effort, it is easier to just press one.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

because what do they have to gain for lying?

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Are you new to gaming forums? Trolling is very common.

If OP is being truthful then they must have the worst luck ever because it doesn't sound like they're playing the same game as I am. I'm not even exaggerating. Their claims contrast my experiences so much that for me the only logical explanation is that their claims aren't true.

I'm not saying bad players don't exist, they do. Some are spectacularly terrible. But I refuse to believe that NA is some sort of cesspit of laziness and a lack of skill, which is the image OP is painting. There are differences across regions but not to the point that they each may as well be playing different games.

And honestly...in my long years of playing mmos I have seen many overreact hugely when they encounter a player who is merely okay and talk about them as if they're horrendous. So I take it with a pinch of salt when someone complains about a massive amount of ludicrously terrible players that I and others somehow rarely see.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Are you new to gaming forums? Trolling is very common.

If OP is being truthful then they must have the worst luck ever because it doesn't sound like they're playing the same game as I am. I'm not even exaggerating. Their claims contrast my experiences so much that for me the only logical explanation is that their claims aren't true.

I'm not saying bad players don't exist, they do. Some are spectacularly terrible. But I refuse to believe that NA is some sort of cesspit of laziness and a lack of skill, which is the image OP is painting. There are differences across regions but not to the point that they each may as well be playing different games.

And honestly...in my long years of playing mmos I have seen many overreact hugely when they encounter a player who is merely okay and talk about them as if they're horrendous. So I take it with a pinch of salt when someone complains about a massive amount of ludicrously terrible players that I and others somehow rarely see.

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I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say like, “oh this person must be lying or exaggerating.” But then those same people are the ones going “oh i choose to see the best in people and these “bad” players just cannot be lazy. It can’t be on purpose!” Just seems like a really weird double standard.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say like, “oh this person must be lying or exaggerating.” But then those same people are the ones going “oh i choose to see the best in people and these “bad” players just cannot be lazy. It can’t be on purpose!” Just seems like a really weird double standard.

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Yea I'm not one of those people, I haven't ever said "I choose to see the best in people". What I had said is that I give people the benefit of the doubt. Some assume bad player = must be lazy. When the truth is not as black and white as that. Someone could be having a bad day, be tired after a long day, not played the class in ages, new to the content or not done it in ages, getting lag spikes, being distracted irl by something, be disabled, are actually doing their best but it just happens that their skill ceiling is low...or they could be lazy.

Not assuming everyone underperforming is a leech isn't the same as seeing the best in people. It's simply having enough sense to know that there are more variables than good and lazy when it comes to performance.

So when I see someone not doing very well I think "hrmm they're not doing very well" and not "OMG LEECHER!!!!!". If they're doing bad enough that it's causing a problem then I say something and if they're offended by the idea that they're expected to play adequately for the content we're in that's when I label them as lazy. I don't go straight to assuming the absolute worst about people. I need more than "a blm should be doing higher dps than that" to form that sort of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

I am from the EU and I know that there are trash players who are intentionally trolling you. I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally, the fact remains that they are way too bad and they are not sprouts.

For example, today, as I was levelling my sch, doing Dohn Mheg. For the first time I had a party that failed the dps check at the last boss. And I have done that dungeon more than 40 times. It is not that they couldn't cross, they did, around the same time as me. At our next attempt, lb was used because oh well, pressing buttons in a coordinated way requires too much effort, it is easier to just press one.

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So you assume malice before anything else? Gee, I wonder why you too experience problems in your DF runs. I do wonder indeed.

In fact, it makes me think you'd probably end up reporting people who have legit done nothing wrong, oh no, I've not forgotten about your ACT thread. I figured you were just looking to understand how you may best report on legit leechers and bad faith players, now I think you're more likely to be one of those who eventually gets snagged by the GMs for false reporting.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

So you assume malice before anything else? Gee, I wonder why you too experience problems in your DF runs. I do wonder indeed.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/UoYqxi...o1Q2/giphy.gif

Even the Mystery Gang is perplexed! Will no one be able to solve this mystery? :(

With all this talk about lying I'm surprised no one has brought up the question of are you actually lying if you truly believe what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

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I never said I experience many problems. Why are you putting it like that? Are you trying to tell me that you never ever run into players who are getting under your skin in DF? If I did experience way too many, I wouldn't have 1300 comms just from two months of playing. I am not going to say, the five runs I did yesterday with tanks who used their cooldowns properly felt like a blessing. Sustaining them didn't feel difficult and I enjoyed my run with them. Or that blm I got in the twinning that uses elixirs like me to execute 4 flares in succession. The mobs were melting and it felt great. In the post, you quoted I legit said I had done that dungeon more than 40 times. In all of those cases, I have never met people as bad as them. How am I not supposed to think they are just being lazy and expected to be carried? They were not sprouts or new to the dungeon.

I no longer report anyone except people who skip cutscenes in msq roulette. I am just not naive. You can't tell me that someone who is wasting my time is doing it with good intent at heart. At one point the duo dps in that run just stood and did nothing. When I asked them about it, they said they went to make tea. While I am sustaining the inexperienced tank that is not using cds. They couldn't write, hey guys pls wait 1-2min right? Communicating with your teammates is too much of a hassle. And then I am not expected to assume malice about these people.

It is pretty obvious that I am not going to think that the 31 level tank I got in haukke manor is trolling. They just don't know how to play, which is just fine. Not everyone who is bad is trolling. I was terrible at whm as well at the beginning. I only over-healed and never did any dps. I was running around when there was nothing to heal and I was thinking I was doing an amazing job because I was getting comms from other players. But when I got lucky enough to get someone who would give me tips about how to play better I listened, followed them and started playing better. I didn't argue and didn't pretend to know better the same way some people, who have a lot of learning to do, do.

I reserve a nice attitude towards sprouts who are actually apologizing when they make mistakes, the same way I did when I was learning. Recognizing one's own failures indicates that maybe they are willing to learn and get better. I don't even bother to give advice or tip to someone who can't even greet his party members.

"I tend to assume that someone is performing terrible on purpose but even if they are not doing it intentionally" - I do that because most players who are performing terrible never communicate unless they are confronted, some don't even reply. And I am left to wonder why. And the most logical answer is because they are self-centred.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

https://media.giphy.com/media/UoYqxi...o1Q2/giphy.gif

Even the Mystery Gang is perplexed! Will no one be able to solve this mystery? :(

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I see I am receiving "I am going to hate you and make fun of you since I don't have better use for my time" treatment.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think that the issue is being very, very exaggerated, but I would be foolish to say that it never happens, because it does.

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What's more foolish is admitting there is a problem and making fun of those who encounter the problem.

not gonna lie, OP reminds me of the time that Varis goes into the meeting with the Alliance that one time, and after everyone's like, "dude you just admitted to helping the Big Bad Fellas destroy the world", he goes, "w-w-w-w-well limsa lominsa has a kobold ERP problem SO THERE gottem" and then walks out like he won the argument

funny stuff man

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Originally Posted by Tactical

not gonna lie, OP reminds me of the time that Varis goes into the meeting with the Alliance that one time, and after everyone's like, "dude you just admitted to helping the Big Bad Fellas destroy the world", he goes, "w-w-w-w-well limsa lominsa has a kobold ERP problem SO THERE gottem" and then walks out like he won the argument

funny stuff man

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I just "replayed" the cutscene in my head after reading this post and I had to laugh for like 5 minutes.

You made my day with this sir, well done.

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Originally Posted by Tactical

not gonna lie, OP reminds me of the time that Varis goes into the meeting with the Alliance that one time, and after everyone's like, "dude you just admitted to helping the Big Bad Fellas destroy the world", he goes, "w-w-w-w-well limsa lominsa has a kobold ERP problem SO THERE gottem" and then walks out like he won the argument

funny stuff man

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Tbh he did win that argument. Finally called people out on their hypocrisy and double standards lmao.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I would normally ask if it's on both bosses but at this point I'm just tired of even vaguely entertaining the idea that you're being truthful in your complaints.

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I could show you a recording of me tanking the knave for a minute or so and almost getting deleted by autos while the tank in my alliance has their thumbs up their butt but I'd have to censor all the player names, which would also hide half the screen and that's just the one time I bothered to record and not the several other times it happened, vs red girl too /shrugs
guess I'm just making it up and these things never happen

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

I could show you a recording of me tanking the knave for a minute or so and almost getting deleted by autos while the tank in my alliance has their thumbs up their butt but I'd have to censor all the player names, which would also hide half the screen and that's just the one time I bothered to record and not the several other times it happened, vs red girl too /shrugs
guess I'm just making it up and these things never happen

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There hasn't been any point in which I have said bad players don't exist.

I am, and have been saying all along, that I think OP is greatly exaggerating how many they encounter. They're painting a picture that the average skill in NA is significantly lower than EU. While regions do have differences I don't believe they could be to the point that each may as well be playing a different game.

I don't think EU is some special place where the average skill is much higher than NA, sorry for that I guess?

Honest question, let us just say it is exaggerated why does that even matter?

Does that make what they experience less valid or not a concern?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Honest question, let us just say it is exaggerated why does that even matter?

Does that make what they experience less valid or not a concern?

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Um, exaggerated claims diminish concerns last I checked, in just about everything.

If you want people to take people like OP seriously in a public forum, they should try less blanket statements, less "woe is me", a dash of realistic expectations on what SE would actually do, actually start using the suggested tools ingame to curate his experience, then come back with a semblance of a metric other than "all my runs" and "half the playerbase" as his argument.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Um, exaggerated claims diminish concerns last I checked, in just about everything.

If you want people to take people like OP seriously in a public forum, they should try less blanket statements, less "woe is me", a dash of realistic expectations on what SE would actually do, actually start using the suggested tools ingame to curate his experience, then come back with a semblance of a metric other than "all my runs" and "half the playerbase" as his argument.

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Wait but I thought people were all about giving someone the benefit of the doubt especially over issues over personal experience which can often not be proven to be false in such contexts though.

Granted, exaggerated claims over ones personal experience differ from ones that ones that can and cannot be substantiated. If they can be substantiated then yes normally the claim is diminished, but in cases were we cannot prove otherwise since it is a personal experience often times isn't it wrong to undermine their experience?

What I am say sure it what may not be common to some and an exaggeration. Though to the person in question this could be their truth and reality. We validate other truths and realities despite the evidence that goes contrary to what they experience. Sure they are over more hot topic issues but the core concept still stands.

On mobile cannot edit, though I will be honest SE will never do anything and I will always be in that camp and I do think people who have issues like the OP should make use of the tools we have such as vote removal and queuing with friends. The skill floor in this game will not be raised it is not in SE's best interest to do so.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Wait but I thought people were all about giving someone the benefit of the doubt especially over issues over personal experience which can often not be proven to be false in such contexts though.

Granted, exaggerated claims over ones personal experience differ from ones that ones that can and cannot be substantiated. If they can be substantiated then yes normally the claim is diminished, but in cases were we cannot prove otherwise since it is a personal experience often times isn't it wrong to undermine their experience?

What I am say sure it what may not be common to some and an exaggeration. Though to the person in question this could be their truth and reality. We validate other truths and realities despite the evidence that goes contrary to what they experience. Sure they are over more hot topic issues but the core concept still stands.

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Remember the main reason OP is feeling this way isn't because intrinsically that there are people who play, for simpler terms, bad. It's the amount of people he has encountered that has led him to believe half the playerbase plays bad. If we take that as face value, then that half becomes a real number. But the real number is based off an exaggeration. That's why the concern becomes diminished. Not over his frustration. Even myself, I can understand encountering bad DF sessions and expressing frustration. I won't undermine that and you'll find most empathizing with frustrations. That's why we have a Tales of DF thread. It's concern over this claimed quantity and it's giving the impression to a lot of people in this thread is that it's being blown to proportions, thus casting also a diminished concern over OP's experience as well.

I mean put it this way, if that number was much smaller in his case and by much, let's pretend that only 5-10% of the playerbase played "bad" in his encounters, do you think he'd have this thread up?