[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Above is merely determination to not give a single inch. Square can change the course of the story however they please. They call those shots, not us.

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Meanwhile, we can also criticize the course of the story that Square Enix decided to change, if we feel that it unceremoniously drops plot points that we feel they have been building up.

I mean, I criticized the Ivalice raid storyline when Ramza Lexentale's toxic attitude was suddenly changed to a gallant and kind one, and this was pointed out as hugely unusual by the NPCs, and it turned out the only explanation was "I was under a lot of stress at the time".

Similarly, we will likely never know why Varis had the creepy grin at the end of 4.56, because now he's dead, and so his motives can only be explained by other characters post-mortem, with all the biases that implies. So why have that scene at all? Why build it up only to abandon it?

Also recall that there was a very prominent slide at Fanfest that said it was "now time to take down the Garlean Empire". Except at the moment, the Garlean Empire has already been taken down effectively, through no action on our part. At the time I was assuming that it would be part of the 5.x patch stories, but now I'm not so sure. Why hype it up if it's not going to go anywhere?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Maybe I remember it wrong but wasnt this the plan that Thancred had before he collapsed? Making sure that the people ask themselves if this is truly Zenos?

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It was, but the plot point was also apparently completely abandoned, since all we had was Elidizenos go "I handled it, don't worry about it". Maybe it served its purpose in getting Varis and Elidizenos to go back to Garlemald from the front lines, and so the writers decided it could be summarily dismissed?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Maybe I remember it wrong but wasnt this the plan that Thancred had before he collapsed? Making sure that the people ask themselves if this is truly Zenos?

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It was and Riol proceeded with that plan after Thancred collapsed. And if I remember correctly Maxima confirmed that it was a success when he arrived in Rhalgr's Reach.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

It was and Riol proceeded with that plan after Thancred collapsed. And if I remember correctly Maxima confirmed that it was a success when he arrived in Rhalgr's Reach.

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Yep this did succeed but Elidibus directly succeeded in quieting that story after.

Still, the story has set it self up properly for 6.0 to focus on a new Civil War since even with the story quieted, there is still enough for internal conflict to rise from many political factions and both uncorrupt and corrupted nobles in the Garlean Empire with the parallel plot of concluding the long Zodiark vs Hydaelyn Arc (aka Season 1 storyline) through the finale of 6.0 to 6.3.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Square can change the course of the story however they please..

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I think you've completely missed my point. I never said Square did not have authority over their own story. I'm saying it's bad writing. Square can pull the plug on their own servers and end FFXIV whenever they wish.

Edit: And of course, SE's actions over their own game are up for discussion by the FFXIV community, these very forums are a testament to that.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

It was and Riol proceeded with that plan after Thancred collapsed. And if I remember correctly Maxima confirmed that it was a success when he arrived in Rhalgr's Reach.

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Additionally, if you talk to Yugiri at the Doman Enclave, she mentions that their spies are working in Garlemald spreading the rumours.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Still, the story has set it self up properly for 6.0 to focus on a new Civil War since even with the story quieted, there is still enough for internal conflict to rise from many political factions and both uncorrupt and corrupted nobles in the Garlean Empire with the parallel plot of concluding the long Zodiark vs Hydaelyn Arc (aka Season 1 storyline) through the finale of 6.0 to 6.3.

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I don't really want a "civil war" plot. Maybe as a secondary event but not the main feature - we already had a war story in Stormblood and it was my least favourite part of the game.

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Meanwhile, we can also criticize the course of the story that Square Enix decided to change, if we feel that it unceremoniously drops plot points that we feel they have been building up.

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What was dropped? Zodiark/Hydalaen is one of the current threads. We've just had Emet giving his explanation of his version of their origins and prevented his plans. Now we're likely going to find out if they can be tapped for power - which is different to what Zenos achieved with Shinryu. This will likely result in more work to free Zodiark, unless Zenos goes for Hydalaen. The events on the first prevented a lightbound calamity of sorts, but the Zodi/Hyd angle has been waiting to be pushed, and here it is getting teased. We are going to learn even more about them - and it won't be pleasant information.

The Empire v Alliance war was left fresh in mind when we left for the First and will be resolved when we return, for good or bad. Not only that but it will likely result in something very final for the Empire as a whole, beit its destruction or reformation. This has been ongoing for ages and, once again, things are being teased.

With the death of Emet, the Ascian plot now turns to Elidibus as the sole survivor who will be taking matters into his own hands.

I see nothing being dropped. The situation on the first was tied up quite nicely, with just enough semi-loose threads to pull while we wait for Elidibus to start causing First-Trouble. The game has been heavy on Empire & Ascian matters since ARR and one of its constants. It's still going. Meanwhile, Source events will eventually reach a boil that will no doubt demand our attention and lead to some serious shenanigans.

I seem to be one of few people who are genuinely excited to see how scary and nasty this gets, which it can (and likely will) after the success of SHB and its darker (re. lighter) themes.

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I think you've completely missed my point.

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No, you did. The post had less to do with affirming Square's ownership and more to do with pointing out that none of us are an authority on what is or should be 'the story' as a whole when criticizing it (mostly reference to the whole 'derailment' trite when, in reality, it's all relevant - just done at the hands of a character some people don't like). They're pushing it in a direction and it's going there. You don't have to like how it goes and you don't have to like certain characters (and there's nothing wrong with discussing or criticizing it if that is the case - that is what we are here for), but everything Zenos did relates to matters that have been prevalent both in the past and present of the story and they're pushing it into an obvious direction, not derailing it. Comments like "Yeah, well, X villain could have done the same" is not helpful, nor is bashing characters based on what we believe was/is/should be the story (rather than what it officially is).

They've constantly teased the current weakness of the Scions, constantly teased chemical weapons which we've discovered was a cause of a future calamity and the death of the WoL, but in the words of Estinien (from memory, so not 100%) - "What now? The game is the same but the pieces have changed" - and they're changing to someone who you really, really don't want to have a hand in Source matters. Someone who absolutely WOULD hunt down those Scions and slay them in their 'sleep', someone who WOULD use Black Rose if it suited him (or instigated situations where others use it instead), someone who WOULD pursue Zodi/Hyde and cause absolute annihilation by releasing them, slaying them or using them - all without any kind of care for what is wrought. And with potential Warriors of Light getting involved to stop us as well, just like the Ascian's used before?

Bad news bears for the source and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

What was dropped? Zodiark/Hydalaen is one of the current threads. We've just had Emet giving his explanation of his version of their origins and prevented his plans. Now we're likely going to find out if they can be tapped for power - which is different to what Zenos achieved with Shinryu. This will likely result in more work to free Zodiark, unless Zenos goes for Hydalaen. The events on the first prevented a lightbound calamity of sorts, but the Zodi/Hyd angle has been waiting to be pushed, and here it is getting teased. We are going to learn even more about them - and it won't be pleasant information.

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Also presumably on their summoning and how they function, and with information on the summoning comes information on the WoL's former self.

I'm expecting the severely weakened Crystal Mom to willingly impart the entirety of her remaining power unto her summoner along with an Echo vision of the final hours of the old world, while Zenos attempts to take power from Zodiark by force and has his will subsumed.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Objectively, he's not an antagonist compatible with the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark main storyline because his goals and actions are unrelated to it. And objectively, his character does not parallel the protagonist in any meaningful way, so he cannot reflect or shadow the protagonist. The FFXIV story was never setup in the beginning to be about "combat high". As main antagonist, he doesn't fit into the FFXIV story.

If Zenos was actively shaping the main storyline, or if Zenos character actually paralleled the protagonist in a significant way, then we could have said he objectively fit the story better. Objectively, characters should actively integrate into a story, instead of derailing it into tangents.

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In YOUR opinion, Zenos doesn't do these things as a character. I can offer multiple examples that suggest otherwise. As adversaries representing opposing beliefs, I can argue that Zenos and the Warrior are a microcosm of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. I can look at the visual imagery that describes both and use that to make value judgements about the use of Dark and Light as a storytelling motif. I can draw parallels between the two that takes their similarities - enormously powerful, talented and blessed individuals - to consider the why's and wherefore's of the gulf between them. In multiple ways their relationship echoes the basic premise of the story, which is about duality (possible about duality versus balance, we have yet to see, which is something Zenos could tie into very well).

In many ways Zenos and the warrior are indisputably similar - their fighting abilities, their possession of some kind of 'supernatural' power that augments these abilities, the way they both stand out from the crowd, their isolation because of this. The ways in which they are different only heighten the similarities and vice versa. That you dismiss this - I have no idea why since it's made quite obvious - is one of the reasons you don't see Zenos as relevant.

He isn't a complex character for the most part, but he has space for complexities to develop. He doesn't need to be complex to provide a powerful foil for the Warrior and - if the player is inclined to do so - cause him/ her to question his/her motivations as the Warrior. Especially as part of the losses he/she has suffered during the HW/SB arcs and as deliciously developed in the DRK story.

You are entitled to dislike Zenos as a character. You're not entitled to dress that up as fact when it's merely opinion. In my opinion Zenos is interesting, but I can understand why some dislike him. I'm happy to engage in discussion but not with someone who attempts to shut everything down with 'no, I'm right and you're wrong'. This is what you are doing when you describe literary criticism as objective. No critic in the world worth their salt would agree with you. We can all have opinions and back up our arguments with examples from the text, but in the end it's all subject to interpretation.

You seem not to get this at all

I'm just thinking hero's monomyth. The biggest loss would be the one who started the game with us. Hydaelyn. :P
At the same time we keep regaining more pieces of our soul (the transformation).

So would the end result in the world transforming but moving on?
Would it be that we regain much of ourselves only to sunder ourselves once again, to repeat the process...in a way like Journey (the video game).

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I can offer multiple examples that suggest otherwise. As adversaries representing opposing beliefs, I can argue that Zenos and the Warrior are a microcosm of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. I can look at the visual imagery that describes both and use that to make value judgements about the use of Dark and Light as a storytelling motif. I can draw parallels between the two that takes their similarities - enormously powerful, talented and blessed individuals - to consider the why's and wherefore's of the gulf between them.

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Then do so. Just saying:

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Originally Posted by Elladie

In YOUR opinion

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is just a way of dismissing the discussion. Make your case instead of dismissing mine.
Show the visual imagery. "Enormously powerful, talented and blessed individuals" describes a LOT of characters in FFXIV. Why are Zenos and the WoL specific parallels to each other? If your not bothering to draw on objective facts to form the basis of your argument, then I can just dismiss it as your opinion, which would make the entire thing a waste of time. I'm not here to learn about whether you liked Zenos or not.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

In many ways Zenos and the warrior are indisputably similar - their fighting abilities, their possession of some kind of 'supernatural' power that augments these abilities, the way they both stand out from the crowd, their isolation because of this. The ways in which they are different only heighten the similarities and vice versa. That you dismiss this - I have no idea why since it's made quite obvious - is one of the reasons you don't see Zenos as relevant.

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But you can say the say thing about Emet, Lahabrea, Lady Iceheart, Estinien, the Heavensward, ect ect. The similarities are superficial. Provide objective facts to the argument and maybe it'll be a little stronger. Where do Zenos and the WoL parallel each other where most other antagonists do not? We can agree Zenos and the WoL wield weapons, that doesn't make them parallel each other substantively.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

You are entitled to dislike Zenos as a character. You're not entitled to dress that up as fact when it's merely opinion. In my opinion Zenos is interesting, but I can understand why some dislike him. I'm happy to engage in discussion but not with someone who attempts to shut everything down with 'no, I'm right and you're wrong'. This is what you are doing when you describe literary criticism as objective. No critic in the world worth their salt would agree with you. We can all have opinions and back up our arguments with examples from the text, but in the end it's all subject to interpretation.

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You're attempting to shut down this discussion by calling everything I say opinions. Saying I like Zenos or you dislike Zenos is a substanceless discussion.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

You seem not to get this at all

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Is this the point where I dismiss this statement and say "in YOUR opinion"?
You say you can make your case, then make it. Why only imply you can make your case and instead offer your opinion instead? Back it up with objectivity. Use the facts of the story.