More Horizontal Progression please

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

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It's bad for your sanity.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks. And survivability is only considered when you're at or below min gear.

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Currently, yes, although there were DPS and healers melding accessories (or wearing a vit accessory or two) to hit HP thresholds for T13 progression, especially if the group didn't have a monk for the Dragon Kick debuff.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks.

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this is not true? the entire group had to be able to survive Nerve Gas to clear T11.

T5 i think also had that issue when people didn't have enough HP to do 3 stacks on fireballs.

From my FFXI campaign (2003-2010) and casual story grinding here and there, I can easily say that end game was not only some of the most fun I had in MMO's, it was also the most frustrating. Never before had I raged so hard at a game because I do weeks among weeks to months to years to get one piece of gear through content our LS either had to fight RMT, botters, and other legit competitive players. I -never- got my Askar body piece from Nyzul Isle and it still makes me sad to this day. I easily got to the 80th-100th floor of that dungeon at least 20+ times to never see it drop, not even attempt to lot against someone on it. Wait months to see an item finally drop in Dynamis just for someone to beat you in a lot.

I have a hard time believing the audience of this game would be in favor of horizontal since it is the same people who complain that they are bored doing the same content over and over again and we get new content every 3-4 months. Both Horizontal and Vertical have their advantages/disadvantages, but from SE's perspective, which method is going to bring the most people in and keep them there? Vertical is the likely answer.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

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No, that is not "Horizontal" progression, that is actually vertical progression.

That is like critical mitigation. Don't have enough? Can't beat the boss.
That is like accuracy. Don't have enough? Can't hit or beat the boss.

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Your idea of this is called "Homogenizing Stats." its a false choice. In a system like that, there is no horizontal progression because its not, its actually vertical.

In your system you have 2 pieces of armor.

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

It would be like picking between ilvl100 and ilvl200 gear. Why would you fight a boss with ilvl100 gear when ilvl200 gear is clearly better?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

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In which game?

What your saying is basicly the same as this:

All DPS Classes do 1000 DPS.
Except Blackmage, who does 3000 DPS.

Now everyone must roll Black Mage for DPS, there is no choice.

That is not Horizontal Progression, and your friend's explanation is silly. It sounds like they don't play many games.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

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if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

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Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?