The completely REASONABLE changes to the Dark Knight job thread

Most of those parse you saw are when the Dark Arts bug was still on which alllowed Dkn to be on par damage wise with the other tanks. Dkn lost around 100 dps due to that

And in any case anyone here trade 100 dps or more at any day for some utility instead of being dead weight when offtanking and praying when MT to the random luck gods so we dont get smashed by a tank buster due to limited defensive skills the Dkn has for those cases.

The thing Dkn has right now is extreme aggro gain but its just plain overkill usually.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

Yes, most DRK parses won't break far above the 700-750 range now that Double Dark Arts has been removed. And in those cases, they won't last much longer than 2 minutes.

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Thats another important point, unless the Dkn gets some tp outside help you go tp dry in around 2-3 min unlike the Pld and Warr that last quite a bit more (much more in Warrior case due to tp regen skill)

Yes, most DRK parses won't break far above the 700-750 range now that Double Dark Arts has been removed. And in those cases, they won't last much longer than 2 minutes.

I was referring to using c&s blood weapon and syphon when ot not mt. Which means I wouldn't be in grit because I would be spending a lengthy amount of time not tanking. Also please show me what miraculous pld can out parse a drk in an aoe type encounter. Did circle of scorn get a buff I haven't noticed? Drk wipes the floor with pld in terms of aoe damage.

Also you don't die the same way with vit or str accessories. Sure you're not mitigating any more or less damage aside from the 1% you might gain to parry but you have more of a cushion for a healer to manage. That's common sense. Instead of being at critical health in need of an immediate heal after a tank buster and auto attack you are at half and the healer has more time and can use a smaller heal to save you. Meaning less stress more room for error and less mp used by the healer. Warriors mitigation isn't dazzling either but people make good use of what it offers.

Good news is that some things will be tweaked though just probably not as extreme as most of you hope.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

1. 10% parry to grit...so you want something -better- than Shield Oath? Haha

On Delirum: You don't always have a monk? There are other, similar debuffs that dont stack in the game (ninja/warrior share one for instance).

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Firstly the issue with Shield Oath is a PLD has a shield adding even more passive mitigation to them. DRK doesn't get anything similar to that or active mitigation to make up for it. Parry is already a pretty crap RNG stat so we need any little boost to it if we want to be able to make it worthwhile.

NIN/WAR buff are equivalent though, a WAR can toss it up and free the NIN up to do more damaging attacks in their rotation. A DRK/MNK combo has nothing, the MNK still has to maintain their debuff while the DRK just gets to sit in the corner wishing they could provide utility.

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Originally Posted by DesFenrir

I was referring to using c&s blood weapon and syphon when ot not mt. Which means I wouldn't be in grit because I would be spending a lengthy amount of time not tanking. Also please show me what miraculous pld can out parse a drk in an aoe type encounter. Did circle of scorn get a buff I haven't noticed? Drk wipes the floor with pld in terms of aoe damage.

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AoE damage only matters on trash pulls in dungeons which is a non-starter in raids. The PLD will still be taking less damage over all which is a given with the shield, but the gap is rather large at the moment between DRK and PLD. I'd go so far as to say that WAR is probably more DEF then DRK right now on anything not magic, and even then its a toss up.

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Originally Posted by DesFenrir

Also you don't die the same way with vit or str accessories. Sure you're not mitigating any more or less damage aside from the 1% you might gain to parry but you have more of a cushion for a healer to manage. That's common sense. Instead of being at critical health in need of an immediate heal after a tank buster and auto attack you are at half and the healer has more time and can use a smaller heal to save you. Meaning less stress more room for error and less mp used by the healer. Warriors mitigation isn't dazzling either but people make good use of what it offers.

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Except the problem isn't that DRKs are all walking around with full STR gear. The problem is the classes main defensive cool downs can't deal with tank busters or sustained damage very well. Not to mention they have longer cool downs. I mean Shadow Wall is basically a crappier Vengeance with 60 more seconds added to the recast.

I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this is treading old ground. Dark Knight seems pretty good to me, but is missing one defensive cooldown and has a couple weird things in its gameplay.


1) Reprisal should have 100% uptime if the DRK is tanking, but not if he isn't. I would make it an on GCD weapon skill with a TP cost of 40 and a potency of 220 or 230 that activates upon parrying or taking magic damage.
2) Dark Dance and Dark Mind should have their effects combined into one ability, Dark Dance.
3) Dark Mind can then be turned into a Sheltron/Inner Beast type move. Dark Mind: Parries the next attack made against you and [restores TP/restores MP/counter-attacks]. 30 second recast. Dark Arts effect: 50% chance that effect doesn't end upon parrying (or increased parry power to 30% or something).
4) Shadow Wall should have a Dark Arts effect to increase its effect to 40% damage reduction.
5) It would be nice if Salted Earth placed directly under you or your target. Using ground targeting as a tank is a little janky with everything in your face.

Also, this is kind of a side thing, but Power Slash feels underwhelming when compared to paladin and warrior enmity weapon skills. Rage of Halone has a debuff (which, admittedly, I usually skip over in favor of Royal Authority) and Butcher's Block is warrior's most damaging combo, but Power Slash has no debuff and is DRK's second least damaging combo, *and* it has no MP restoration from Syphon Strike. They should maybe rethink this combo a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Power Slash has no debuff and is DRK's second least damaging combo, *and* it has no MP restoration from Syphon Strike. They should maybe rethink this combo a little bit.

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Huh?

Power Slash is our second highest damage combo.

DA + Souleater
Power Slash
Delirium
Souleater

Those are our combos in order of potency. Also you need to keep in mind, Power Slash isn't meant to be spammed. A single DA + Power Slash is pretty much hate for days, so you should focus on alternating DA Souleaters, and Deliriums after that point.

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Originally Posted by Killsion

Huh?

Power Slash is our second highest damage combo.

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You're forgetting Syphon's +30 over Spinning.

DA Souleater combo > 800

Delirium combo > 680

Power combo > 670

Souleater combo > 660

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Also, Power combo returns no MP, so overall it will result in an additional DPS loss one way or another, as without Syphon - you aren't building MP for more Dark Arts and/or sustaining Darkside.

IMO this is why DRK's enmity is so strong, why Scourge is so high, why we get the double dot with Salted Earth - because it's necessary. Unlike PLD/WAR, DRK is punished for using it's enmity combo. PLD enmity combo gets dat debuff, and WAR has the comfort of knowing Butcher Block, while lacking the Storm debuffs & Maim buff - is still their highest potency combo - and it still builds Wrath/Abandon stacks like Maim's tree - where as DRK's Power Slash consumes them - Dark Arts buffed or not.

edit: (Pretty much exactly what Brannigan just said)

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Originally Posted by Cidolfas86

AoE damage only matters on trash pulls in dungeons which is a non-starter in raids. The PLD will still be taking less damage over all which is a given with the shield, but the gap is rather large at the moment between DRK and PLD. I'd go so far as to say that WAR is probably more DEF then DRK right now on anything not magic, and even then its a toss up.



Except the problem isn't that DRKs are all walking around with full STR gear. The problem is the classes main defensive cool downs can't deal with tank busters or sustained damage very well. Not to mention they have longer cool downs. I mean Shadow Wall is basically a crappier Vengeance with 60 more seconds added to the recast.

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Don't forget Shadow Wall is also 5 sec shorter than Vengeance, making it even worse.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Firstly the issue with Shield Oath is a PLD has a shield adding even more passive mitigation to them. DRK doesn't get anything similar to that or active mitigation to make up for it. Parry is already a pretty crap RNG stat so we need any little boost to it if we want to be able to make it worthwhile.

NIN/WAR buff are equivalent though, a WAR can toss it up and free the NIN up to do more damaging attacks in their rotation. A DRK/MNK combo has nothing, the MNK still has to maintain their debuff while the DRK just gets to sit in the corner wishing they could provide utility.

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1) They arnt suppose to, they arnt Paladins. Paladins dont have sick aoe, off gcd attacks, spammable self heals for 2-3K with gear. Paladins have no burst damage potential, terrible aoe and many lacking things. For that, they get incredible mitigation---so no----you don't get a shield, and you arn't suppose to mitigate like a Paladin.

2) So you would like it to provide the impact debuff to free up the monk?