New Jobs Gated Behind Completion of 2.0 Story?

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Something I've been wondering about - with the Au Ra, how are they going to be explained as arriving at the starting cities if they're a "new" race? SE is not adding a level 0 playground for newbies in the Dravonian areas, based on interviews and such. But new players who purchased the expansion will surely have the option of rolling as an Au Ra from day one.

It'll be interesting how they explain it. Are you refugees from another area, like the Domans?

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The same way all non-legacy characters are introduced. You're an adventurer arriving to the city from parts unknown in a cart. Anything before that is left to the player's fancy.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

But if you've rolled as an Au Ra and you're playing through the MSQ, when Yugiri is introduced she says she wears her mask because people are scared of the unknown. Welllll you're now an Au Ra and people are not freaking out when they see you, so her story wouldn't make sense any more.

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They'll most likely flag the dialogue for Au Ra PCs and give some other justification.

In response to Duuude007:
1. We have been told that the new classes are in Ishgard, and to access Ishgard we have to complete the Main story line up to current. IF this correct then where is your hook to entice a new player to purchase this expansion? What NEW content has SE shown us at anypoint at is NOT related to Ishgard and beyond? Side point to consider: after reading some of your previous posts here, trying to sell the expansion to a new play based on new areas is a bit silly as the current content is all NEW areas for them to explore, Airships are a FC thing not something you can sell to a new player.
2. The rogue classes in this game that you refer to had no blowback as you state true. But the class/job was added for free and only "gated" to level 10 not 50 and a story line requirement.
3. Thank you for agreeing with me that new expansion in WoW and AO allowed you to play the new races and classes with the SAME limits as the older classes. A starting Doctor in AO faces the same limitation as a new Shade. A new Monk or goblin in WoW starts in there own newbie zones just as the starting warrior or priest did in vanilla WoW.

Again I am looking at this from a how to get new subscriptions, not how to keep me interested. SE has US hooked that is clear.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

But if you've rolled as an Au Ra and you're playing through the MSQ, when Yugiri is introduced she says she wears her mask because people are scared of the unknown. Welllll you're now an Au Ra and people are not freaking out when they see you, so her story wouldn't make sense any more.

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Yes, that's true, there is a single plothole in the story there. The thing is, it's a smaller plothole than many we have dealt with in this game and others, so....we could just suspend our disbelief for a while.

Also, Yuguri is associated with the Doman people, what if the Au Ra are reclusive among the Doman because the Doman are not terribly diverse as a society and therefore fear the Au Ra for being different?

The people of Eorzea deal with diversity in so many ways, there are many differing peoples, from Roe, to Miqo'te, and Lala to Hyur, not to mention all the Qi'rin running around being junkmongers and such, the numerous beast tribes, the Padjal, etc... so why would an Au Ra in Eorzea seem particularly unusual or out of place? Infinite diversity in infinite combination....

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Originally Posted by Zplinter

1. We have been told that the new classes are in Ishgard, and to access Ishgard we have to complete the Main story line up to current. IF this correct then where is your hook to entice a new player to purchase this expansion? What NEW content has SE shown us at anypoint at is NOT related to Ishgard and beyond?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I am quite confident that "ALL" is largely inaccurate.
Yes, jobs are found in Ishgard.
Yes, main scenario is found in ishgard.

Is the Au Ra race locked behind Ishgard?
Is Coerthas western Highlands locked behind Ishgard?
Is Dravania locked behind Ishgard?
Are FC/personal airships locked behind Ishgard?
Is The Sea of Clouds locked behind Ishgard?
Is The Churning Mists locked behind Ishgard?
Is Alexander locked behind Ishgard?

Just because the majority of they have shared with us is presently perceived as "gated" is a far cry from presuming that everything is.

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Originally Posted by Zplinter

2. The rogue classes in this game that you refer to had no blowback as you state true. But the class/job was added for free and only "gated" to level 10 not 50 and a story line requirement.

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This is a gray area. I agree the effort to access was low, but it was also intended to be part of the original classes, and was added later due to budget, time, and a plethora of other factors they likely wouldn't share. Because it is treated as a base class, the expectation is bound to be different from standalone jobs which are explicitly found in Ishgard, and are almost universally being treated as 'advanced' jobs. Different conditions and requirements.

Hell, there are beginner plot points which prevent you from using guns, and you don't even learn about (spoilers)

'unleashing the darkness'

...until the late 2.55 story. To grant access to all 3 jobs with the same precondition makes sense, but if they are meant as advanced roles, a player should understand team play, basic role management and coordination before the game NPCs consider them "worthy" of such capabilities. Just like dungeon access, relics, and general gating.

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Originally Posted by Zplinter

3. Thank you for agreeing with me that new expansion in WoW and AO allowed you to play the new races and classes with the SAME limits as the older classes. A starting Doctor in AO faces the same limitation as a new Shade. A new Monk or goblin in WoW starts in there own newbie zones just as the starting warrior or priest did in vanilla WoW. Again I am looking at this from a how to get new subscriptions, not how to keep me interested. SE has US hooked that is clear.

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One argument that I have been trying to make repeatedly is that just because some content requires a 'rite of passage' to enter Ishgard and access more advanced challenges, doesn't mean that people cannot explore new areas not directly associated with Ishgard. As I listed in the quote above.

Take Zilart/Sky or Thavnazian Safehold/Sea for examples of gated content in FFXI. They not as damaging to the game's success as people are implying...nor were they even close to the only content to which those expansions opened up for the player. PLENTY was still available on day one.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I am quite confident that "ALL" is largely inaccurate.

Yes, jobs are found in Ishgard.
Yes, main scenario is found in ishgard.

Is the Au Ra race locked behind Ishgard?
Is Coerthas western Highlands locked behind Ishgard?
Is Dravania locked behind Ishgard?
Are FC/personal airships locked behind Ishgard?
Is The Sea of Clouds locked behind Ishgard?
Is The Churning Mists locked behind Ishgard?
Is Alexander locked behind Ishgard?

Just because the majority of they have shared with us is presently perceived as "gated" is a far cry from presuming that everything is.

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While it is true that it may be jumping to conclusions to assume that all of these are gated as well, it continues to sidestep the major issue here: Enticing new players to purchase the expansion.

Tell a new player, considering buying Final Fantasy XIV for the first time, that with this new expansion, they'll be able to visit Coerthas Western Highlands!!! They will say, "What the hell is a Coerthas?" and put it back on the shelf. If you're LUCKY, they MAY buy the base game, but if they do it has nothing to do with the expansion. The expansion has completely failed to sell itself, and has contributed nothing toward selling the base set. That is not good business.

Of the things you mentioned, Au Ra is the only attractor that might appeal to fresh newbie. They won't be interested in the new zones - of COURSE there will be new zones. It's an expansion! A newbie with a history of playing Final Fantasy games might also be intrigued by the mention of Airships and Alexander, but even that is starting to shrink the net SE should be trying to cast to reel in new players.

An MMO player is primarily interested in questions like, "Who can I be?" and "What can I do?". "Where can I go?" is much lower on the list. What we've seen of the expansion so far has been marketed EXCLUSIVELY to current FFXIV players, and that makes me worry a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

FFXI did. The original "main scenario" in XI culminated with the final cutscene of Dynamis-Xarcabard, a difficult large scale raid. Each nation in FFXI had its own main scenario quest, and each expansion had a separate story. HOWEVER! The only requirement to start the expansion content (including new jobs) was purchasing the content and having a character at level 30. (You could actually enter some of the zones earlier than that by completing a quest that was intended for level 30s early.) A level 99 character who completed the expansions saved the world a different way each time.

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That is still a bigger gate then xiv will have. It takes much less time to level a character to 50 and complete the main scenario then just level a job to 30 in XI. If the expansion is all a new player feels the game has to offer then they likely won't like the game much anyway.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

What we've seen of the expansion so far has been marketed EXCLUSIVELY to current FFXIV players, and that makes me worry a great deal.

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I would be careful with the use of "all" and "exclusive, simply because players can still technically access said content quickly if they burn past content via veteran friends or merccing. But the consequences of this can be steep as well, prioritizing access while sacrificing personal progression and story... To each his own I guess. Seems like a trashing of content, imho, however.

There is no basic content a player cannot get past without being carried... Step 1: Grid to 50 on one class. Step 2: Equip a set with i90 gear average (can be crafted), and with this, any player could be corpse carried through all the content including Steps of Faith... If that is what they wish.

Think of Ishgard as a massive, massive dungeon with the same gear requirements as "Keeper of the Lake". Clear it, and you get access to new features, just like KotL, except much, much larger volume.

As for your other argument, what besides jobs is on your list, as a hypothetical new player, as major selling points, in the average mmo expansion? That couldn't possibly be all for which you buy an expansion.

Most expansions are not marketed towards brand new players. The most important group an expansion is marketed to is returning players who unsubbed. Brand new players need the entire game sold to them, not just an expansion pack.

No we only know of Yuguri as we have progressed that far into the story line. But a new warrior of light would have no clue as it has not happened for them.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I would be careful with the use of "all" and "exclusive, simply because players can still technically access said content quickly if they burn past content via veteran friends or merccing. But the consequences of this can be steep as well, prioritizing access while sacrificing personal progression and story... To each his own I guess. Seems like a trashing of content, imho, however.

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I agree with this part completely. Players should be incentivized to complete the whole main scenario, and see the whole story. This is why the attractors, the things that initially hooked them about the expansion, should be in easy reach, so they they DON'T feel obligated to power through all the main scenario to get to the stuff they originally bought the expansion for. Buy the expansion, try out the new jobs and race that got you interested in the first place, THEN stay for the long haul, including the Main Scenario and the following missions in Ishgard.

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As for your other argument, what besides jobs is on your list, as a hypothetical new player, as major selling points, in the average mmo expansion? That couldn't possibly be all for which you buy an expansion.

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For a new player? Jobs and playable races are pretty much the only things a new player would buy an expansion for. The understanding is there that there is more to an expansion than that, but those are the things a new player would expect to have access to.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Most expansions are not marketed towards brand new players. The most important group an expansion is marketed to is returning players who unsubbed. Brand new players need the entire game sold to them, not just an expansion pack.

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Brand new players DO need the entire game sold to them, not just the expansion. This is absolutely correct. So, if they purchase just the base game and NOT the expansion, then the marketing has failed. They did NOT buy the whole game - they only bought the base game. New players should be encouraged to buy the collected set which contains both ARR and Heavensward. Given the current state of Heavensward, if I were a new player probing FFXIV for the very first time, I'd be mighty cautious about getting the ARR/Heavensward combo, when I could get just ARR on the cheap to try it out before I purchase the expansion as well. If I noticed that the job I REALLY want to play is only available in the expansion, though, I'd be tempted to pay extra, just for the opportunity to try it out with the job I'm particularly interested in.

I'm also skeptical about the claim that the primary market for expansions is to bring back lapsed players. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not; I don't know, I'm not familiar with the statistics. But even if that were true, depending on when they lapsed those players could be just as discouraged by being gated by Main Scenario as new players would be.