"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

This needs an award, really...

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Originally Posted by Razdazim

After having been here since June or July I can say this is the biggest lie that this game's player base tells and I am sick of it. This entire problem is promoted by the heavy handedness of this games harassment policies, making it impossible to have fights and arguments in a attempt to resolve problems that instead encourages passive aggressive behavior that is just as detrimental if not worse. At least when there is fights and arguments people know where another stands, what the problem is instead of attempting to ghost and being child like. If someone has done something wrong, no matter how petty one may perceive it no one is allowed to be critical.

I am absolutely disgusted, and I hate this concept of people wanting to talk, be social and make friends one minute but without warning having done nothing people suddenly refuse to speak. It's flat out hypocritical and disingenuous.

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I can count on one hand the times I or someone else has been kicked from a group. I can count on one FINGER the number of people I've blacklisted because of toxic behavior.

No community is PERFECT, but FFXIV's is one of the better ones, even accounting for the recent mass influx of players from other MMOs. In WoW, you might get kicked from a group for simply not having the right gear or a single wipe happening. In FFXIV's DF, you just don't see that. In PF, you rarely see that, and only if you've specifically jumped into something like parse runs or the like.

Overall, the community is really nice, and in the few cases they aren't, they're generally still at least tolerable. The only person on my block list is a guy that joined a P1S clearly marked [Practice] run that was clearly marked as teaching the fight and then refused to accept a raise after someone messed up chains and then someone messed up intemperance, got in an argument with the other tank or one of the melee insisting they needed to adjust to him on Chains since he had to use Divine Veil and get a cure before moving out of the center, and when he walked into the wall to self-kill AFTER THE PULL of our second run, refused to accept the raise and just laid there watching everyone else die while complaining and then saying he was going to blacklist us all.

This happened yesterday.

I've been playing since 2013.

That's my first blacklist that wasn't a gold seller bot.

I'd say that points to an overall good community if I've been playing for 9 years and only had that experience ONCE. I can think of exactly ONE time that a tank went pariah in a dungeon (Tam Tara, and this was like 5 years ago) forcing the rest of us to kick him (it was so long ago I tanked the trash with Titan until another tank joined, if that gives you any idea how long ago this was...)

Two cases of hyper-toxic players in 9 years seems like a pretty low amout to me...

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

u are harassing them. it might be juvenile to u and it might even be juvenile to them, but they asked u to respect their privacy/boundaries/space and u are responding by doing the thing kids do where they put their hand in front of someone's face and go, "i'm not touching you! i'm not touching you!" ff14 absolutely has an issue with people being too quick to report, but u seem to have an issue with maturity and/or entitlement.

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I have moments like every other human being. Where it was so quick to go from just my thoughts on something in a calm manner, to being told to gtfo for something so insignificant and benign? Yea the energy shot up and i ended up being just as petite in return. Nothing ever came of the report, but i don't go by there anymore. I cannot take emotionally fragile people like that, i am not going to dance around your minefield of triggers. My intent wasn't to upset them, but if they reacted like that was fully my intent with no benefit of the doubt...? Screw your feelings.

I stick to places with a bit more of a "human element"

Not these RP popularity contest, where you force a overly kind and accepting attitudes to make yourself more likable, until you disagree.

meltdown may was last month lol ur real late

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Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

meltdown may was last month lol ur real late

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Whateer that means, the SS is a year old

I dragged a friend back into the game earlier after I heard about the free login campaign. We've never played together but he played before I did and he used to try to get me into the game.

It should've been great but before I could get home from classes so that we could play together someone griefed him while out was out gathering by dragging a bunch of mobs onto him to kill him as he was collecting.

We messed around later but he hasn't been logging in any time that I'm not logged in. He says the community reminds him of WoW and he's sad to see the game go this way.

Social settings where you can never simply have an argument with someone but instead every disagreement devolves into gossip, lies and backstabbing are infinitely more toxic than ones where people just have an open fight instead of sneaking around trying to make people choose sides or get each other in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

I dont know what youre talking about as i havent seen the thread, mind linking it?

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OMG .... are you kiding me ?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-In-Game/page4

post #34 is you right ????!!! so how you didnt know about that thread when you posted in it ! O.o

im done arguing with you, you've proven in here and other thread that you are indeed the definition of a toxic individual, you may not slur,
but your attitude towards fellow player is truly toxic, your ego is mind blowingly large, an absolut oversized pride, and now your lying ...

your the definition of the type of person that no matter how hard we try to explain something to them, they will never ever, see the point

have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I dragged a friend back into the game earlier after I heard about the free login campaign. We've never played together but he played before I did and he used to try to get me into the game.

It should've been great but before I could get home from classes so that we could play together someone griefed him while out was out gathering by dragging a bunch of mobs onto him to kill him as he was collecting.

We messed around later but he hasn't been logging in any time that I'm not logged in. He says the community reminds him of WoW and he's sad to see the game go this way.

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As somebody whos played Wow from Early Wrath- Pandaria. Im shocked to hear how bad the toxicity has gotten. I loved the social element because i felt i could be myself in WoW. Just login and create my own adventures but having chats about random topics that come to mind. But the Overton window has shifted and the list of "socially acceptable" things to talk about is more a narrow band. When i login i feel like i have to walk on eggshells or stick with a list of easily digestible simple topics that lack any substance.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I can count on one FINGER the number of people I've blacklisted because of toxic behavior.

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Wait, let me guess what finger that is!!

Been playing since 1.0 never had an issue communicating, resolving problems and airing grievances. Try not being a jerk about it

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I dragged a friend back into the game earlier after I heard about the free login campaign. We've never played together but he played before I did and he used to try to get me into the game.

It should've been great but before I could get home from classes so that we could play together someone griefed him while out was out gathering by dragging a bunch of mobs onto him to kill him as he was collecting.

We messed around later but he hasn't been logging in any time that I'm not logged in. He says the community reminds him of WoW and he's sad to see the game go this way.

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wait how is that even possible? They would run to the guy who faced pull and that's it. Unless your friend attacked them he would have 0 aggro. They would ignore him and reset the moment the guy who face pulled ran too far. Also don't all gatherers have stealth?

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Originally Posted by Renalt

wait how is that even possible? They would run to the guy who faced pull and that's it. Unless your friend attacked them he would have 0 aggro. They would ignore him and reset the moment the guy who face pulled ran too far. Also don't all gatherers have stealth?

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Aoes exist? Even if you're stealthed if any aoe drops where you're standing, then it still hits you. You basically drag the mobs right to where the other person is and sit on them, waiting for the aoes to drop.

People have been doing this for ages, but it's supposedly highly reportable. It happens enough that people have a term for it, "MPK" or Monster-Player-Kill/Mob-Player-Kill. People tend to target other players that they think are botting with this normally, because they don't think they'll be punished.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Aoes exist? Even if you're stealthed if any aoe drops where you're standing, then it still hits you. You basically drag the mobs right to where the other person is and sit on them, waiting for the aoes to drop.

People have been doing this for ages, but it's supposedly highly reportable. It happens enough that people have a term for it, "MPK" or Monster-Player-Kill/Mob-Player-Kill. People tend to target other players that they think are botting with this normally, because they don't think they'll be punished.

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Can't control other people, unfortunately. If something like that will make your friend stop playing, only recommendation I have is to report it and grow a thicker skin. You'll find stuff like this in any game that involves other people.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Can't control other people, unfortunately. If something like that will make your friend stop playing, only recommendation I have is to report it and grow a thicker skin. You'll find stuff like this in any game that involves other people.

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Well according to him the FFXIV community wasn't ever like this. He swears the community is so much worse than it used to be a few years ago, hence why he doesn't want to play that much anymore.

It's different for me, because I guess the game was just like this when I started, so I'm used to it? But for him it's like coming home but the entire building is on fire.

I've been playing this game for like 6 years, and while it's true that the players on this game can be more toxic than the community makes it out to be, it's also a lot better than any other MMO I've played.

I think this is more of a negative bias. You remember all the bad events but none of the good interactions.

Although maybe the way you interact with people tend to push you into more confrontative situations.

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Originally Posted by SillyCrow

I think this is more of a negative bias. You remember all the bad events but none of the good interactions.

Although maybe the way you interact with people tend to push you into more confrontative situations.

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Does a positive bias exist? Where people only want to consider good interactions? Which is the other side of the coin. Which is why i feel like this game suffers from toxic positivity, because people only want to see the good, and anything else doesnt count

Ive dealt with wayyyyyyyyyyyyy worse communities, this one isn't the worst by far. Its not a awful community, but is rather sensitive and a degree of disingenuous. During my WoW days, i enjoyed the community for that genuine feeling i got, just being a player in a video game, just being myself and making a friends group with people i get along well with.

Here, it feels like people are trying to role-play who they see themselves as, to RPers in a bubble its fine. But to myself who's more RP-lite, and rather make friends with the player rather the the idea of who they imagine themselves to be, it feels hollow to me.

I wanna make friends with humans with thoughts and opinions and feelings, not peoples Mary Sue characters that have 1 personality trait. I want depth.

(But then again the most social aspect of the game leans towards to RP crowd)

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Does a positive bias exist? Where people only want to consider good interactions? Which is the other side of the coin. Which is why i feel like this game suffers from toxic positivity, because people only want to see the good, and anything else doesnt count

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Negative bias is an actual adaption humans have. We are far more likely to remember negative interactions because it helped us survive. "last time I walked on those rocks it hurt a lot" is far more important to our immediate survival than "walking on the grass feels nice" and "The cave on the side of the lake has a bear that ate Thag in it" is VERY important to remember.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Negative bias is an actual adaption humans have. We are far more likely to remember negative interactions because it helped us survive. "last time I walked on those rocks it hurt a lot" is far more important to our immediate survival than "walking on the grass feels nice" and "The cave on the side of the lake has a bear that ate Thag in it" is VERY important to remember.

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And there is some truth to that. But does that make my experience any less valid?

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Originally Posted by Solowing

And there is some truth to that. But does that make my experience any less valid?

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No. But "positive bias" isn't it I think.

Toxic positivity is a thing, for sure, but it's not because of any sort of built in propensity of people to only notice positivity. More like "wishful thinking" creating toxic positivity.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

No. But "positive bias" isn't it I think.

Toxic positivity is a thing, for sure, but it's not because of any sort of built in propensity of people to only notice positivity. More like "wishful thinking" creating toxic positivity.

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So my question to you is, does toxic positivity exist here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om57...AsmongoldClips

Zepla is joking about it, but its baked in truth that the community can kinda act like this.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

So my question to you is, does toxic positivity exist here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om57...AsmongoldClips

Zepla is joking about it, but its baked in truth that the community can kinda act like this.

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Sure. But it's not like FFXIVs community is particularly unique. It's the same people except with different rules and standards. I've been in nearly every major MMO's community at one time or another.. it's not like they ATTRACT different people entirely, it's all gamers. It's just the same people and those that can either stand the others or follow the rules end up being representative. As much as some players here would say something about "well this game caters to GOOD people"... naw.. you just can't constantly yell the "my ding-a-ling" limerick in shout all day like you could in the barrens.

People like to hopefully be a part of the "good" people or the "realistic" people or the "thick skinned" people, but they're just people. We're all gamers and that's like being someone who likes cars: Y'all can Chevy this or Toyota that.. but neither of those actually attract some type of person.

I think if anything I prefer this kind of community where there's at least superficial civility. I don't particularly like interacting with anyone other than my friends anyway and since it's basically against the rules to force yourself into my attention constantly, it's pretty good for me here.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Sure. But it's not like FFXIVs community is particularly unique. It's the same people except with different rules and standards. I've been in nearly every major MMO's community at one time or another.. it's not like they ATTRACT different people entirely, it's all gamers. It's just the same people and those that can either stand the others or follow the rules end up being representative. As much as some players here would say something about "well this game caters to GOOD people"... naw.. you just can't constantly yell the "my ding-a-ling" limerick in shout all day like you could in the barrens.

People like to hopefully be a part of the "good" people or the "realistic" people or the "thick skinned" people, but they're just people. We're all gamers and that's like being someone who likes cars: Y'all can Chevy this or Toyota that.. but neither of those actually attract some type of person.

I think if anything I prefer this kind of community where there's at least superficial civility. I don't particularly like interacting with anyone other than my friends anyway and since it's basically against the rules to force yourself into my attention constantly, it's pretty good for me here.

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Its the downside of every MMO that has lasted through multiple years and expansions . It happens to every game like it.

Take SWTOR a fully VO'd MMO with multiple cutscenes in all of the early flashpoints . In the early years you would be shunned for demanding players "SPACEBAR " to skip cutscenes and their were many across the board in dungeons.

Skip to 5+ years in and the group component for semi to hard content ( bar specific dungeons modes and raids of course) isnt necessary ( the healer tank dps combo isnt needed for normal dungeons any more and the old dungeon content scales upwards to max level) , vastly increased power creep , less and less content , players that need to take breaks but dont are yet again in the grind for the same old endgame gear/tokens and the attitudes even from vets is they dont care anymore and their acceptance to let new players experience cutscenes without being harassed is long gone .

Some people are so unaccepting now they will have no hesitation to rage quit leaving new players stranded or to make it worse the duty pop screen actually shows you the level of the team make up and if it isnt to their liking they will auto cancel the accept window and you could be stuck with duty pops being refused multiple times even in peak hours as there is no cancelation penalty for refusing a duty pop , and because so many now just expect the daily done in 10-15 minutes ( easily done with BiS equipped players in older upscaled dungeons) and not 25+ like it may take with upscaled lowbies.

Compared to the early years its hellish now.

Seems ok to me, I've been playing several years now, but then I rarely talk to anyone in game other than to ask an occasional question like where the hunt train is at the moment.. In WoW, my talk was limited to announcing rares, which I later assigned to an addon to announce them automatically.

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Originally Posted by Razdazim

"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

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Good that you have realized this. But now remember it, because always will be a lie

It's generally true, but if you are unpleasent people won't be as nice to you. Also, I'd rather receive fake friendliness than earnest agression. The moderation is doing a good job to create a more positive environment.

I honestly find it hard to understand this kind of "problem".

Are you saying that there is a form of social hypocrisy? Well done, you've just described every form of human interaction. Your neighbour pisses you off because he's making noise while he's doing work; you won't go and smash his face in or shout at him (poor guy, he's got the right to put up his wardrobe); but you'll be moaning in your beard in your corner. That's what happens on FF, no more and no less. If I come across a challenge with a bunch of sprouts tomorrow, I'll be grumbling behind my screen. But I'll also take the trouble to explain it to them. Is this false kindness, knowing that I'd rather be with veterans who know their stuff? Yes. Is it still more pleasant for everyone? Also yes.

Another thing: in my experience, leaving it up to the players to sort things out "by themselves" has never been beneficial. No matter how much you pretend it's more constructive, in reality it leads to extraordinarily toxic communities, where you get kicked, insulted, and cursed at for trivial reasons. Let's be a little honest: humanity in online games... Is hopeless. A lot of people allow themselves to behave badly. This is a pessimistic statement, but it is true. From there, a very simple conclusion: it is necessary to reintroduce rules to replace the "social varnish" that we keep IRL.

And finally, as far as criticism is concerned: ask yourself a minimum of questions about the way you phrase things. When I see a player doing something stupid, I say so; when I see that a rotation is not mastered, I say so too. I don't hesitate to ring the bell for a healer who doesn't use a dps spell in a dungeon. And yet, I've never been banned or deferred; nobody (or almost nobody) has ever yelled at me. Because I'm polite in the way I phrase things. And here again: use your common sense. If someone comes up to you IRL and says "you're doing shit, get out of here, you'll never get it right": you'll get angry, take it badly, and generally not really listen to that person. If, on the other hand, a colleague advises you to proceed in such and such a way, to use such and such a tool instead, while remaining pleasant and encouraging: you will appreciate the advice, listen to it, and progress.

It's exactly the same thing with MMORPGs. How many times have I seen people complain about newcomers without even bothering to address them directly? "Raider leader, why did you take that guy", etc. And then the same people tell you that the community is too touchy. That's just stupid. Address the new guy directly, explain why coming without matéria is a bad idea, and you're done. I can guarantee you that it will go down better.

TDLR: I'd rather have restrictive rules than a complete jungle + stop acting as if the IG world should be a lawless space totally dissociated from IRL social rules + use your common sense, it helps in many cases (even if the "I make no effort" specs exist too, I don't deny it).