They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

Hm. Weird that the devs while testing can clear end game without addons. And you don't need FFlogs to play the game. As long as the boss dies and you don't then who cares.

ToS been there since release. Really the Addons they need put in game are QoL stuff like chat bubbles and gshade settings and better color blind stuff. Damage meter is not one that is needed.

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

Damage meter is not one that is needed.

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We already know it's not needed. It's still nice to have, however.

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

Hm. Weird that the devs while testing can clear end game without addons.

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Yeah, they test and clear content on a debug client wherein they use additional checkpoints, god mode and a host of other tools inaccessible to the player. They also almost certainly have an internal method for parsing and interpreting logfiles while debugging complex fights as well.

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

Hm. Weird that the devs while testing can clear end game without addons. And you don't need FFlogs to play the game. As long as the boss dies and you don't then who cares.

ToS been there since release. Really the Addons they need put in game are QoL stuff like chat bubbles and gshade settings and better color blind stuff. Damage meter is not one that is needed.

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The difference between a fight taking 30 minutes or 15 minutes is why people use damage meters

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

Hm. Weird that the devs while testing can clear end game without addons. And you don't need FFlogs to play the game. As long as the boss dies and you don't then who cares.

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Haven't I debunked you on this exact line before?

That line is entirely smoke and mirrors. Frankly you'd have to be an utter imbecile to think that they somehow need to use addons to test content in production. They can simply use development clients to use things such as godmode, inflated damage and hp, even break fights down into a phase by phase test if needed. This was something that was clarified very specifically by Yoshida back in Gordias and other than them switching away from testing phases individually (with fresh cooldowns which was a big part of the Gordias tuning issues), nothing appears to have changed.

If you seriously think that SE's testing team was clearing DSR entirely legitimately during it's development then I don't know what to say to you tbh.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

We already know it's not needed. It's still nice to have, however.

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Only thing I can see use is looking at the different on jobs. Like Mch. As a selfless dps it does less damage and use then a bard or DnC. FFlogs say as much. Yes, every job can clear but then there the elitist who look at that and say don't bring one because of logs.
Now I saw a post on self damage only. That could work but it only for the instance and you can't save it unless you screen shot it.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

The difference between a fight taking 30 minutes or 15 minutes is why people use damage meters

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If you re worried about taking to long then do something else. You went in to raid. It like saying CC pvp taking to long because the enemy putting up a fight.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Haven't I debunked you on this exact line before?

That line is entirely smoke and mirrors. Frankly you'd have to be an utter imbecile to think that they somehow need to use addons to test content in production. They can simply use development clients to use things such as godmode, inflated damage and hp, even break fights down into a phase by phase test if needed. This was something that was clarified very specifically by Yoshida back in Gordias and other than them switching away from testing phases individually (with fresh cooldowns which was a big part of the Gordias tuning issues), nothing appears to have changed.

If you seriously think that SE's testing team was clearing DSR entirely legitimately during it's development then I don't know what to say to you tbh.

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Yes but they make sure it can be beat even if they don't restart every death.

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

Hm. Weird that the devs while testing can clear end game without addons. And you don't need FFlogs to play the game. As long as the boss dies and you don't then who cares.

ToS been there since release. Really the Addons they need put in game are QoL stuff like chat bubbles and gshade settings and better color blind stuff. Damage meter is not one that is needed.

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A damage meter *is* QoL. It's just irrationally hated because some people might be mean sometimes and might even be incorrect with those criticisms.

Every single one of these persecution fantasies is trivially refuted by tapping on the "harassment is against the ToS" sign.

But FFXIV's community is so marshmallow soft that the guarantee isn't good enough. No, SOMEone, SOMEwhere, MIGHT have the ability to ask if they want pointers and have some dirty, filthy facts to back it up. And it's the "having facts to back it up" part that's bad.

That's what every. Single. Anti-parser argument boils down to. The harassment part is ALREADY punishable. The change they object to is the numbers. The facts. The stats, plain and simple. You adamantly, furiously, don't want numbers. And what a hill to stake one's claim on. Ignorance is strength. Passive-aggression is politeness. Knowledge is evil subversive contraband that must remain a punishable offense.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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Congratulation! When did you join the testing team? How did you get the job? Was it difficult to learn enough Japanese to be useful during the raid testing?

Or are you hand-waving like the rest of us when it comes to speaking about this issue?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Congratulation! When did you join the testing team? How did you get the job? Was it difficult to learn enough Japanese to be useful during the raid testing?

Or are you hand-waving like the rest of us when it comes to speaking about this issue?

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Sounds a lot like you're doing some handwaving TBH.

People seem to not understand yoshi has never once changed his position on damage meters. He seen in another game what it can lead to and does not want it here. It's a horse thats been beaten to death since 2.xx patch series. If it hasn't change since then, don't expect it to anytime soon..

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

People seem to not understand yoshi has never once changed his position on damage meters. He seen in another game what it can lead to and does not want it here. It's a horse thats been beaten to death since 2.xx patch series. If it hasn't change since then, don't expect it to anytime soon..

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As I understand it, they (devs and/or Yoshi-p) did suggest early on (e.g. at fanfest 2014 or something) that they were considering a client-side scripting/add-on feature for FFXIV (which may have even been in development at the time, e.g. allowing users to write lua scripts which would be executed by the FFXIV client) and that it would enable the creation of DPS meters as well as quality of life features. Post ARR however, they 1) never delivered that feature and 2) made it abundantly clear on multiple occasions that they never intend to provide a DPS meter because, although certain players would enjoy it and possibly benefit from it, Yoshi-p and company are 100% convinced (based on evidence from other MMOs as well as their own thinking over many years) that it would be used for bullying, exclusion, and even more of an overemphasis on efficiency, and therefore can never be added to FFXIV as an official or permitted feature.

In spite of groups of vocal players beating the dead horse for many years, they have not changed their position and are probably unlikely to. The closest thing we're likely to see is Stone/Sky/Sea type DPS challenges.

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Originally Posted by Avenger

The closest thing we're likely to see is Stone/Sky/Sea type DPS challenges.

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This has been for the best. It at the very least provides a medium of what you should at least be doing before mechanics come into play, and sure - it's a dummy meaning it's near useless outside of actual dummy fights like P2S and P1S - but it doesn't mean that it's not a decent tool for gauging your capability with your current gear.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Congratulation! When did you join the testing team? How did you get the job? Was it difficult to learn enough Japanese to be useful during the raid testing?

Or are you hand-waving like the rest of us when it comes to speaking about this issue?

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Or maybe A) I did my homework and B) I've got actual relevant experience in the industry with a similarly large scale developer and publisher so have a fairly good idea of how this stuff is handled in a timely and cost effective manner.

Here's probably the most relevant interview to this topic:

https://www.4gamer.net/games/278/G027835/20151224179/

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

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It may be difficult to deal DPS close to the 100% result. By the way, we also got some posts asking if the members who worked on developing the battles had cleared the end-game content themselves during development.

Yoshida: So like asking whether or how we tested the end-game content and performed balance adjustments?

I think that's the gist of it.

Yoshida: For high difficulty battle content like the extreme battle series, Bahamut's Coils, and the savage version of Alexander, we begin by performing adjustments to the mechanics from an invincible state. Since members of the planning team are practicing the fights for the first time just like players do, if they had to wipe repeatedly there wouldn't be enough time to make adjustments. The priority in this stage is to make sure the mechanics are understandable and hinted at.

By looking through the whole fight in an invulnerable state, you can still repeat with trial and error but it takes less time to get used to the mechanics.

Yoshida: Well, since we're doing adjustments we're starting from a "rough" state of the final fight, so it's a bit different. By implementing the mechanics roughly and testing them in an invincible state, we can make larger adjustments for the mechanics and get a feel for each phase. Once we've made the primary adjustments to the mechanics, we apply a different version of the invulnerable status.

What are the differences?

Yoshida: The HP gauge will drop from damage as usual, but instead of falling when it hits 0, it gets refilled to max. Finally, we remove it and we see whether it can be cleared normally with no changes.

I see. And this applies to the highest difficulty content like the fourth section of Alexander savage?

Yoshida: For the third and fourth parts of Alexander savage specifically, we tested each phase. The FFXIV battle team is made up of some pretty good players, but these aren't world class players. It would have taken longer to perform adjustments if we tested as usual, so we tried to shorten it a bit.

So the release would be delayed if they tested until they could clear.

Yoshida: Since the development cycle is limited we had to proceed with the development of other content. You could sort of say we've cleared it completely through (laughs).

If you could easily clear it then it wouldn't really be fitting as the most difficult end-game content.

Yoshida: That's right. The battle check members of the development team look at FFXIV players and take samples of log data from the hardest battle to compare. The DPS values for the world-class players is really amazing....

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So, what was it you were saying?

I think damage meter shouldn't not be implimented on casual content aka no enrage timer. However they should add somekind of dmg test to pass if you want to touch newer savages or extremes. That would be the best path.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

I think damage meter shouldn't not be implimented on casual content aka no enrage timer. However they should add somekind of dmg test to pass if you want to touch newer savages or extremes. That would be the best path.

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So like gating savage raid finder behind stone/sky/sea, or providing a stone/sky/sea clear checkbox for savage PF recruitment? I don't imagine there would be strong objections to that.

I have to think about whether I would object to a stone/sky/sea clear checkbox for regular EX trials. I think not, but they also feel more mid-core than hard-core so I'm not sure it's needed? I remember getting surprisingly far on Susano and Titania EX with people who had never actually played the game before - maybe clearing stone/sky/sea beforehand might have helped in that instance.

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Originally Posted by Avenger

So like gating savage behind stone/sky/sea, or providing a stone/sky/sea checkbox for savage PF recruitment? I don't imagine there would be strong objections to that.

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its a good idea but id imagine there would still be some objections to that. there are some players that will say gating content based on someones dps is "toxic."

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Originally Posted by Avenger

So like gating savage raid finder behind stone/sky/sea, or providing a stone/sky/sea clear checkbox for savage PF recruitment? I don't imagine there would be strong objections to that.

I have to think about whether I would object to a stone/sky/sea clear checkbox for regular EX trials. I think not, but they also feel more mid-core than hard-core so I'm not sure it's needed? I remember getting surprisingly far on Susano and Titania EX with people who had never actually played the game before - maybe clearing stone/sky/sea beforehand might have helped in that instance.

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I'm sorry, like, I know you're simply suggesting a solution and I don't mean to rain on your parade. I just feel that SSS cannot compare to a Savage the same way. It'd be an annoying obstacle to people who know what they're doing and not much of an assistance to new entrants to high-end.

To be honest if people need a damage meter to clear content, something else is wrong... Say that because SE has made fights and jobs easier over the years.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I'm sorry, like, I know you're simply suggesting a solution and I don't mean to rain on your parade. I just feel that SSS cannot compare to a Savage the same way. It'd be an annoying obstacle to people who know what they're doing and not much of an assistance to new entrants to high-end.

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SSS needs to be updated accordingly to be a sufficient gatekeeper.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

To be honest if people need a damage meter to clear content, something else is wrong... Say that because SE has made fights and jobs easier over the years.

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Yes and you identify what is wrong by tracking progress with a damage meter

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Originally Posted by SilverSkyway

If you re worried about taking to long then do something else. You went in to raid. It like saying CC pvp taking to long because the enemy putting up a fight.

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LMFAO.... Give me a break. Horrible logic, horrible analogy. I award you no points.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

This has been for the best. It at the very least provides a medium of what you should at least be doing before mechanics come into play, and sure - it's a dummy meaning it's near useless outside of actual dummy fights like P2S and P1S - but it doesn't mean that it's not a decent tool for gauging your capability with your current gear.

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Nah, SSS is essentially worthless, since the challenge isn't so much in doing your rotation, but doing your rotation while also doing mechanics. Plus it doesn't do anything for tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

Yes and you identify what is wrong by tracking progress with a damage meter

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It's not needed though. They have made the fights easier over time and the jobs themselves. If people can't tell without a meter when they screwed up in a fight bad enough to where they end up with a enrage despite things being easier, then they have to just keep practicing. Also Yoshi has never changed his stance on it so I really don't know why people keep trying. It would just lead to more harassment with it and yes TOS is against that stuff better to prevent it then just open the flood gates.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

DPS Gauge

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That is why they created the Stone, Sky, Sea dummies. It's so you know if you can DPS at the level you want or not.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I'm sorry, like, I know you're simply suggesting a solution and I don't mean to rain on your parade. I just feel that SSS cannot compare to a Savage the same way. It'd be an annoying obstacle to people who know what they're doing and not much of an assistance to new entrants to high-end.

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I was responding to Zarkovitch's recommendation (damage challenge prereq for ex/savage) and trying to imagine what form it would take.
It sounds like if it were implemented then you wouldn't turn the checkbox on for your PF.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

It's not needed though. They have made the fights easier over time and the jobs themselves. If people can't tell without a meter when they screwed up in a fight bad enough to where they end up with a enrage despite things being easier, then they have to just keep practicing. Also Yoshi has never changed his stance on it so I really don't know why people keep trying. It would just lead to more harassment with it and yes TOS is against that stuff better to prevent it then just open the flood gates.

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"X isn't needed" is a horrible, losing position

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHKMPVOxPOQ

There's a lot of repetition in this thread. I don't see much new being posted that we haven't heard many times before.

Some players have (repeatedly) explained their rationale for wanting an official DPS meter in FFXIV.

Other players have (repeatedly) explained their rationale for not wanting an official DPS meter in FFXIV.

The dev team has (repeatedly) explained their rationale for why there will never be a DPS meter in FFXIV.

I don't think anyone is in the dark about what any of these groups think.

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Originally Posted by Avenger

I don't think anyone is in the dark about what any of these groups think.

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What the other camp thinks? No. Whether (beyond fallacy classics like post-hoc argumentation, conflation, or demands to prove a negative the moment someone asks for actual evidence or sound reasoning that'd confirm a positive)? Now, that's been under more debate.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

That is why they created the Stone, Sky, Sea dummies. It's so you know if you can DPS at the level you want or not.

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Which is kinda useless, because no boss fight is 3 mins long and doesnt have any mechanics, attacks, something to heal or mitigate. The SSS is just a lame excuse for people who think they can handle Ex or Savage, just because they barely beat the SSS.

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

Good luck trying to get in the newest content if you are a little slow to keep up with the speed runners.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

Good luck trying to get in the newest content if you are a little slow to keep up with the speed runners.

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You already have people who will lock you out of parties either through ilvl or they will check your logs lol. I joined the tier super late, first time ever clearing current content, and have had no issues with people locking me out. That's because I either made PFs outlying clear expectations of the fight OR I just join PFs similar to my needs/current progress. It would hardly change anything

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

Good luck trying to get in the newest content if you are a little slow to keep up with the speed runners.

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Then don't join the speed runners? Make your own PF/join other with similar needs?

You make it sound like majority of PF folks are speed runners only.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

Good luck trying to get in the newest content if you are a little slow to keep up with the speed runners.

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Or they would just do what they are already doing: set an ilvl gate, set PF to duty complete and kick people who are underperforming. Because that's way easier and gets the same results. This scenario yoship was warning us about is an unrealistic one. You can also always host your own PFs without any of that for a more laid back and carefree approach. The existence of parsers does not suddenly make formerly untoxic people into toxic ones.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

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I used to PF in WoW all the time and never got asked to link my damage meter, nor did I have decent logs to show. I never got kicked from a group for low damage either, despite playing on a laptop with a touchpad for a mouse for 4 years, because I simply did the basics of my class and contributed, which was more than enough.

"A lot of" PF's is just scaremongering without anything to back it up. Besides, what would be stopping you and the countless hundreds of thousands of players who are either on console or don't like parsers to group up together?

I never understand this fear that ALL parties will start locking out people based on dps. Are the players who don't parse a tiny 5% minority or something, and if they were then why would the game cater only to them? It doesn't make sense whichever way you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

100% this. the ones crying for ACT don't understand all the bullying that would occur as a direct result of endorsing parses as a measurement for competency in raids/trials. Noooooo thank you. I much prefer having a game where new players can pick up a savage trial and actually learn it, instead of being treated like trash because they havent memorized every single detail of a fight for maximum dps upkeep.

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Having a parsing tool doesn't make someone an asshole. People are going to be assholes if that's their nature. I'm in a savage static with cool people. If someone's numbers are low, we help each other out. No one is shamed. Blaming parsing for bullying is like blaming a car for the person purposely running over a cat.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I used to PF in WoW all the time and never got asked to link my damage meter, nor did I have decent logs to show. I never got kicked from a group for low damage either, despite playing on a laptop with a touchpad for a mouse for 4 years, because I simply did the basics of my class and contributed, which was more than enough.

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No, they often enough asked you to link your achieve when applying for groups or new content. Oh, and half the groups you did get into didnt need to ask for your meter logs, they had a meter themselves and could see your dps and kick accordingly. If you seemed halfway useful, theyd keep you until you were holding them back from clearing content.

Also, for the OP, stating that "there are no valid arguments" doesnt mean its a true statements. There are plenty of realistic and valid arguments why in game Parsers are a bad thing. You may not like those reasons or even agree, but the arguments are generally well formulated.

But lets humor the idea of an in-game parser, what can we expect?

- How good your damage numbers are is now softly endorsed by the Devs as a metric to judge another player by.

- An increase of players being greedy dps. There are already a lot of players who use a parser and behave stupidly in groups to get big numbers, then rage out when they get a junk parse because someone didnt DP them or use their buffs right.

- Failure Verification: I.E it is now reasonable to demand someone link their personal meter when a group hits enrage to check to see whos weakest link. Afterall, you cant call it harassment to see their numbers if SE makes that information available. Much like it is not harassment to kick someone from group if their gear is suboptimal for a fight. If there are no meteres (and assuming no parser), it becomes a lot harder to pinpoint whos coming up short with DPS. Blame is spread a bit more evenly. Furthermore, with no meters present, the Devs can justify banning people who kicked someone by their DPS numbers means youre using a tool to see that and that is against ToS. That argument becomes a lot harder to make when you provide a tool which shows that. Oh and for iLvL issue, I and many players almost always avoid people who set an iLvL with a lot of these fights because its usually someone looking to get carried by getting overgeared people in the group who usually have cleared the content. Also iLvL isnt an accurate metric of a players abilty or true gear potential. You can get 590 i lvl just by farming tomes, and you may end up doing less output than a player in 588 gear if theyre using crafted but optimized equipment.

- a DPS meter in of itself is actually somewhat useless. See how much DPS you do is contextual to a lot of factors: Fight, Group Composition, length of Fight, How well you know your rotation, how well others know their rotation, buff window allignment, etc. Just showing a DPS number can lead to a lot of misunderstandings of ones performance. Pair that with Verification issues that may (and probably will) crop up, you can have people getting mad at a player because they think theyre doing poorly when in reality there's a lot of other factors going on.

- The unforeseen trends: Online communities with anything that has a difficulty curve that limits who can do said content will always have some level of elitism, toxicity, and bragging, either from those with huge egos, or those envious of other players' successes. How they display this can vary from game to game. Adding in a DPS meter, even a personal one, is going to feed this issue in some capacity, that is almost a guarantee, because adding any tool or feature which allows people to measure their ability is going to contribute to competition, bragging, elitism, envy, and toxicity.

YoshiP is already meeting us halfway with this issue, and people still witch about it. The simple fact is addons and parsers are against ToS, but the Devs and GMs do not have any clue if youre using one unless you make it known. If youre concerned with your own performance, you could (*not saying you should*) easily run one yourself and keep that information personal. You dont need to upload it to websites or anything. They have generally turned a blind eye to it unless you harass other people using the tool OR youre just being so blatent in flaunting ToS like streaming to thousands of people that you are indeed using these addons in game.

Realistic arguments? The arguments against parsers are either self-contradictory, explicitly ignore inconvenient facts that nullify their concerns, are based on feelycraft "I'd be judged by other people" paranoia, or outright hallucinations of an imaginary person who is explicitly reportable under the rules anyway.

The only argument that has any weight is that numbers by themselves don't help you determine what exactly is going on. And even that argument is considerably weakened by the solution to that concern: those concerns are alleviated by, oh, I don't know, comparing them to other peoples' performance in a place that I'll call...FFRecords. Or uptime/performance analysis tools. You know, those horrible evil things the anti-parsers think are even worse than the idea of adding a parser, because heaven forbid you COMPARE yourself to something. Ewww.

I have yet to see a single argument against parsers that isn't a flimsy veil for "I don't want to improve or allow other people to see that I have room to improve".

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Realistic arguments? The arguments against parsers are either self-contradictory, explicitly ignore inconvenient facts that nullify their concerns, are based on feelycraft "I'd be judged by other people" paranoia, or outright hallucinations of an imaginary person who is explicitly reportable under the rules anyway.

The only argument that has any weight is that numbers by themselves don't help you determine what exactly is going on. And even that argument is considerably weakened by the solution to that concern: those concerns are alleviated by, oh, I don't know, comparing them to other peoples' performance in a place that I'll call...FFRecords. Or uptime/performance analysis tools. You know, those horrible evil things the anti-parsers think are even worse than the idea of adding a parser, because heaven forbid you COMPARE yourself to something. Ewww.

I have yet to see a single argument against parsers that isn't a flimsy veil for "I don't want to improve or allow other people to see that I have room to improve".

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I honestly do not think the devs are both able and willing to provide something as good as we have now with ACT, fflogs and xivanalysis. At most we would get a subpar product covering some bare minimum functions that would have to rediscover much that has been solved ages ago and everyone would just keep using ACT anyway. That sounds like a bunch of wasted effort to me. I'd rather have the written ToS be refined to focus less on harmless third party tools so even the rule lawyers in the room are encouraged to shut up for once.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If Official Damage Meter was a thing then expect a lot of PF's saying: "Link your Damage meter on this fight."

Good luck trying to get in the newest content if you are a little slow to keep up with the speed runners.

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Being consistent, dependable and level headed will always get you a raid spot somewhere if you're actually willing to put some effort in.

Groups that have enjoyed long term stability will look at far more than just the colour of someone's logs.