An open discsusion on the consequences of death

I would like low hp aggro

edit: mix up the aggro types

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Ohhhhh I strongly beg to differ.

In my time playing XI, I hardly *ever* saw people playing caressly or not trying to improve their strategies or tactics to succeed at something.

Of course, this is also before having Power-levelers in a "standard party setup" became the norm and players actually worked through things themselves without any outside help to keep them alive... I suppose that could have changed things. I know at some point, the mindset changed from being "okay, we wiped... let's change our tactics" to being "okay, we wiped, let's get a PL", and further to "the Dunes is impossible without a PL". A PL allowed players to play carelessly and make mistakes that would have certainly wiped them were a PL not there. PLs were one of the worst things to happen in FFXI.

Prior to that, though, if a groupI was in died due to a poor strategy or bad decisions,, changes were made to correct it. If one player consistently kept screwing up or being careless, they were told to knock it off or be kicked because they were screwing it up for everyone else. In most cases, they stopped screwing around.

Your last statement often comes up and sounds wonderful in theory... In reality, though, the only people I've seen consider wiping as "punishment enough in itself" are the serious raiders and those who pride themselves on being able to take things down without wiping, etc. Aside from that, more times than not - in MMOs with no real penalty for dying (and I've played myriad of them) - people simply don't care if they die because they know there's nothing more to deal with than a negligible repair fee and maybe a few minutes of running time. Hell, in some of them people will die on purpose to get around faster; they call it "graveyard hopping" among other things in WoW.

Again... that should never happen. With a meaningful death penalty where something is actually at risk... it would happen *a lot* less.

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I saw several people fail and be hand held all the way to and through "end game" back before anything was made easy in FFXI.

Right now if people keep screwing up in FFXIV the party gets frustrated and before long the party breaks. Thats with the Death penalty we have now. I've been In parties in FFXI where the bad player never got better after we all started telling them politely at first what they were doing wrong and to stop.

I'm not really a hardcore raider I just don't like being a crappy player. The people that don't care if they are a crappy player will never get better regardless of what the death penalty is.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Ohhhhh I strongly beg to differ.

In my time playing XI, I hardly *ever* saw people playing caressly or not trying to improve their strategies or tactics to succeed at something.

Of course, this is also before having Power-levelers in a "standard party setup" became the norm and players actually worked through things themselves without any outside help to keep them alive... I suppose that could have changed things. I know at some point, the mindset changed from being "okay, we wiped... let's change our tactics" to being "okay, we wiped, let's get a PL", and further to "the Dunes is impossible without a PL". A PL allowed players to play carelessly and make mistakes that would have certainly wiped them were a PL not there. PLs were one of the worst things to happen in FFXI.

Prior to that, though, if a groupI was in died due to a poor strategy or bad decisions,, changes were made to correct it. If one player consistently kept screwing up or being careless, they were told to knock it off or be kicked because they were screwing it up for everyone else. In most cases, they stopped screwing around.

Your last statement often comes up and sounds wonderful in theory... In reality, though, the only people I've seen consider wiping as "punishment enough in itself" are the serious raiders and those who pride themselves on being able to take things down without wiping, etc. Aside from that, more times than not - in MMOs with no real penalty for dying (and I've played myriad of them) - people simply don't care if they die because they know there's nothing more to deal with than a negligible repair fee and maybe a few minutes of running time. Hell, in some of them people will die on purpose to get around faster; they call it "graveyard hopping" among other things in WoW.

Again... that should never happen. With a meaningful death penalty where something is actually at risk... it would happen *a lot* less.

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In final fantasy i saw people too afraid to try to do anything without someone else coming up with the strategy to do it first, and accepting meager rewards for years, 1 or 2 people challenged there way of doing things. Then once people hit cap, they get buffer and no longer give a damn about death again, and the people come up with all sorts of strategies to do things that involve people dying repeatedly and getting thier exp back later, soooo basically 75 levels of being a pansy, and then zombie by law when you hit the cap

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Originally Posted by Physic

In final fantasy i saw people too afraid to try to do anything without someone else coming up with the strategy to do it first, and accepting meager rewards for years, 1 or 2 people challenged there way of doing things. Then once people hit cap, they get buffer and no longer give a damn about death again, and the people come up with all sorts of strategies to do things that involve people dying repeatedly and getting thier exp back later, soooo basically 75 levels of being a pansy, and then zombie by law when you hit the cap

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Thats true too. Anyone remember FFXI Zerging? You were expected to die most of the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGEfw1FIJg

I don't know if this has been given quite enough praise, but I absolutely love the idea of a staying alive bonus.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Upon some more reflection, I agree that rewarding people with the "staying alive" bonus for being AFK or just for not playing in a while is a bad idea. My initial outline was also a tad too complex. It could use some simplifying.

As far as it being too easy to die and being really hard to achieve the "still alive" buff, that's sort of what I was going for. I wanted to make it relatively rare to have, so that you don't see everyone and their mother running around with the buff active. I also wanted the buff to not be that strong, so that it's not so bad when you lose it, but I still wanted the player to feel the sting of the loss of all that invested time.

I've rethought my idea and think that a hybrid of mine(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post21748) and Stilla's (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/2097-An-open-discsusion-on-the-consequences-of-death?p=21796#post21796)idea would be interesting.

New Take on Death Penalty:

All SP that you gain as a battle class also contributes to fill up a separate rank up bar that has 5 tiers: rank 1 - 5.

Each rank takes 20,000 SP to reach, so to reach Rank 5, you'd need to accumulate 100,000 SP as any combination of battle classes without dying.

There are six bonus buffs that you can choose from: +5% atk, +5% def, +5% m.atk, +5% m.def, +5% eva, +5% acc, -10%MP cost, +10%TP gain, +2%SP gain

At Rank 4, you can choose one. At Rank 5, you can choose two, and you also get some sort of visual enhancement to your character to indicate your lack of dying. You can change your buffs around at anytime, but there is a 30 min cooldown.

If you die:
You lose 2 ranks
You lose 3 anima
You are inflicted with Weakness

If you die and get Raised:
You lose 1 rank
You are inflicted with Weakness

Again, I want the number of Rank 5 status people to be rare, and to actually be an indicator of skill, because it's hard to earn, and takes the same amount of effort to reach as going from class rank 49 to 50. That way, losing your rank 5 status is also a bit of a sting.

I also realize that some classes like tanks and mages are going to be more susceptible to death than other classes, but hey, those are the inherent risks that come with those classes, so you just grin and bear it.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Hey guys, thanks for repping my idea <3

I fleshed out a few more ideas about this on my blog.
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=155429

Some additional points:

Here's a quick summary of what I'm trying to achieve here - I want a system that rewards players (but not too much) for staying alive, rather than punishes players for dying. I believe that the bias should be towards positive reinforcement as that makes for a more enjoyable gameplay experience. I believe that the method below gives hardcore players (who usually want a death penalty) a reason to care more about not dying, mainly by stroking their egos, while also having death have a real impact on time invested. At the same time, casual players can continue going along throwing themselves at whatever enemy they want no differently than they do now (almost).


Let me put the anima loss into further context. I had envisioned this change along with other changes to the game so that anima wouldn't be such a scarce resource as it is now.

What I wanted to do was to punish the player for dying only a little, and taking away SP is out of the question. That would be too harsh, so the next best thing would be anima.

Now, about my other changes to the anima system so that this would not be as terrible as some have suggested:

I would have all returns done while still alive cost 0 anima. Yoshi-P mentioned that he wants a solution to death porting, so this would be the easiest way.

Also, I would expand the number of favorite locations to 5. Perhaps make a quest that grants you more favorite locations, or something.

Reduce the anima cost of a teleport into a different region from 6 to 5.

Implement other modes of transportation like Chocobos and airships.

This way, the loss of anima still stings a little, but it's not really that bad. It's also not as soul-crushing as losing SP and ranking down.

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I like how that rentai hamster guy practically writes thesis dissertations on FFXIV.

(but I don't like how SE probably won't ever read them lol)

a real death, restart at the beginning with new caracter....lol

Ne-ne-ne-ne-necro post

I would happily welcome SP loss back.

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Originally Posted by leomax

I would happily welcome SP loss back.

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wont happen
yoshi is against them due to his personal experience with them

For the most part i enjoy the death penalty. Generally, getting sent back to the aetheryte and the added weakness time is enough to keep you from getting back in the fight. I dont want to have to constantly worry about whether or not im going to delevel or have some extensively long weakness time.
If they add anything more to strengthen the death penalty, i actually like the idea of taking anima from us. Also, the fact that we can acrue SP while knocked out is stuipd. They should probably go as far as to remove potential skill gain while weakened as well. Maybe add an increased gear degradation when KO'd?

Hello, I'm new to this game... and my character just died... and it wont come back to life... since last night about 13 hours ago. Is this normal? what do I have to do to get my character going again? I'm in Cornelia

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Originally Posted by Sagamore

Hello, I'm new to this game... and my character just died... and it wont come back to life... since last night about 13 hours ago. Is this normal? what do I have to do to get my character going again? I'm in Cornelia

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- to open your menu, then select return and you'll be placed at your last aetheryte gate visited.

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Originally Posted by normalforce

I don't know if this has been given quite enough praise, but I absolutely love the idea of a staying alive bonus.

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lol thanks for the rep :)

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Originally Posted by giftforce

I like how that rentai hamster guy practically writes thesis dissertations on FFXIV.

(but I don't like how SE probably won't ever read them lol)

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oh, you :p

In college, I majored in hamster renting, with a minor in Final Fantasy-ology. I currently work at McDonalds.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

lol thanks for the rep :)

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You're welcome. Just keep coming up with those awesome ideas.

Did a community rep ever comment on this thread? I sort of resurrected it after being linked to it from another similar thread. I'd love to get the general feel from the developers if this is an idea that they could get behind or something that doesn't fit within their direction of the game.

I remember playing a THF in FFXI and being expected to do suicide runs in Dynamis occasionally if things went south. Maybe if they had an alive bonus, that type of strategy might not have come about. Either that or they'd specifically look for all thieves with a Rank of 0.