Time to Quit

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

True but while we meme a lot on Yoshida and the team, I'm sure that somebody like him would take that kind of mass exodus seriously.

He's not the kind of person who would actually let a project just die out. It just seems like he and the team has gotten too complacent at times.

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While it's true that he would likely take a mass exodus seriously, the post you're talking about is describing a mass exodus caused by drastic changes to the game beforehand.

Assuming he would approve drastic changes to the game in the first place, responding to the resulting exodus would just mean reverting the game to its previous (current) state.

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If for some reason the current playerbase turned away from the game in its current state, then yes he would probably consider what changes have driven people off and attempt to win them back. But for now, whether the game is growing or "only" stable at a comfortably high number, if the game is doing well then there is no reason to change it to be something other than what its current userbase is currently enjoying about it. They'll never appeal to everyone, so it makes more sense to remain stable in what the game entails overall. They can't make everyone happy at once.

I have played since 2.0 and have been subbed for 90% of that time with a couple of breaks in lulls between expansions. 6.0 has changed that for me. I have hardly been subbed since it came out. It sadly has killed my love for this game. It's a combination of things, the biggest one for me is the poor MSQ. I hated the 6.0 storyline, it's far and away for me the weakest of all the expansions.

You can't please everyone however, and I would have kept my sub if I was happy doing side content, but there is no side content in 6.0 I enjoy. Everything just feels like a regurgitation. All content is a Linear dungeon after linear dungeon, whether its 4, 8 or 24 man, it is the same old concept again and again. The only change is adding more and more flashy graphics to content. It's all so samey. Job changes throughout 6.0 have been dull. Jobs are becoming more and more similar. The changes to scholar and summoner for me sum up 6.0, smoother - yes. Easier to play - yes, but far more boring. The pet changes to scholar particularly makes it feel like the soul of the job has been ripped out.

Deep dungeon is the one thing I sort of enjoy as it's a personal challenge for me, but even that felt like a re-badged Heaven on High.

I'm just a casual player now and have been for since Stormblood, I was happy to muddle along doing crafting or levelling jobs etc, but everything in 6.0 feels tedious, it quite frankly feels like a chore to log in.

I'm actively looking for a replacement MMO now. I know we have different feelings about games and stories, but if a lot of long time players like me are also cancelling their subs, it must surely make SE do a rethink.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I just realized I said that wrong but glad you caught my drift lol. It is quite amazing what they managed to pull off look wise with that custom Source engine. The combat itself is amazing but...game turned into a "let's sell ya nipple outfits for 400$" simulator. That and the super steep walls you hit in progression turned me way off eventually.

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the other thing that bugged me was the overuse of dungeons, and then for a change they have you enter from the other end. yeah, I played with people that spent thousands of real life dollars to get an outfit. wasnt "pay to win"...mostly.. but was certainly pay through the nose to look good. that and that you were rewarded for basically logging in and going afk lol

Sharing the sentiment with most others, if 7.0 keeps going to direction I dislike, I will probably become a story only player. Getting the expansions from sale and clearing most of the stuff during final patch with a single month of a sub.

Like most people I am holding out for 7.0 but if it follows where it looks like it is heading I think it is finally time after 9 years to hang this game up and move forward. 9 years of gameplay and I seen that content and the devs love for the game has dropped

can I have your Gill?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

The problem with that is...that'd require there to be actual mess ups as folks claim. I personally don't think the game is perfect but it IS growing each and every expac so that means they're doing something right (contrary to what many say here). It's less a case of devs messing up and more a case of people not feeling like the game caters to them anymore. For a game that's been apparently dying for 4+ years according to these forums, I can't tell really, and numbers don't support that thought.

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This.

From what data we DO have, the game is growing vs the past. The Steam data is a poor measure (and probably the most antagonistic/pessimistic of the data we have), but even it shows higher levels of players and active log-ins than pre-2021. The game on Steam is at or above 5.4/5.5 levels, and spikes higher every new patch.

The other data sets we have, like the Lodestone crawls that Lucky Bancho puts together, show player retention higher post-expansion than any prior expansion.

While I do agree the game isn't perfect and there are things I'd like to see fixed or changed going forward, it's not dying. It's not even clear it's plateauing. My big issue with doomsayers making this claim is that it's just false by even the most pessimistic data.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Overcoming a difficult challenge should be part of the reward...

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I think there are a couple parts here that often are missed.

1) People that do difficult content often say they do it for the challenge, but refuse to do it without reward. This suggest the aren't being honest about their motivations.
2) People will do things they don't like if the reward is great enough to them...but is that good game design? Force people into doing something they find un-fun...in a game...which is supposed to be fun?
3) Difficult things can have rewards without them being exclusive to that content, provided it has some other advantage (time efficiency, for example). This is still "tangible".
4) Even if we ignore that and go with your premise, Savage groups still will attempt 8 clears for all their members, not just one.

I agree all content should have rewards, but I tend to support an "all roads lead to Rome" model of video game design. The Sand step in the HW Relic I thought was very well done precisely because it gave players lots of ways to engage with it, with different ones being more or less efficient (in time and resources), but everything from Level farming for those Aether Incased Vilekin chests to DoH/DoL crafting scripts could be used to progress it, as could running Alexander raids.

The trick, I think, is in giving people efficiencies they can use. For example, suppose Criterion Savage capped your tomes for the week in a single run. Now, at least for a little while, hardcore players (who are the ones it's made for) have a good reason to run it. Would you rather spend a few hours chain running Experts to cap on Tuesday (that's something like, what 7 Expert runs in a row since you only get the daily bonus on the first one?), or run a single Criterion (Savage) if you've got it down to where you can do it in half an hour with your static-mates splitting into two groups? Not even an exclusive reward, but already there's a reason to actually run the things once a week. Some might then choose to do that while others choose Extremes or Hunt Trains or what-have-you, but the point is, it's a competitive and attractive option at that point since you trade difficulty for time efficiency, which matters to some people.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

It actually is not growing but okay ? lol, it's stable yes, but its not growing.

To prove my point based on Steamchart's sample which is a certain % of the community...

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Prefacing this with "steam numbers are HORRIBLY bad and likely don't represent the playerbase as a whole", you can find fault with that statement all you want, I already debunked this. The problem isn't using Steam numbers, the problem is HOW people are using them with poor/incorrect analysis. For example, you're looking July 2022 to present. Why? Because if you cherrypick data like that, it supports your position. But what if you DON'T? What if you look at all the data?

Well, fortunately for us all, I already did that.

UNfortunately, I think the thread and post got deleted. So the analysis isn't here, but I do still have the picture:

https://i.imgur.com/yNQWCSu.jpeg

As anyone can see - and recall that I said Steam numbers are likely the most pessimistic, meaning the most likely to state your case - we are still above patch 5.4 numbers, meaning "apples-to-apples" comparisons of numbers at this time last expansion to this time this expansion shows GROWTH, not stagnation, and certainly not decline.

Moreover, consulting the graph at the top, it show we're at approximately the same level as we were in Summer 2021, when we had the WoW collapse, and this was well before EW launch, which temporarily boosted that (a pattern ALL not dead MMOs have with every expansion launch), and we also get more minor but still significant bumps every major patch.

By the Steam numbers, the game is AT LEAST as popular as it was in 5.4, and probably a bit moreso.

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You did not "give evidence of your claim". You cherry-picked data that, if viewed on the whole, does not support your claim. The game seems to be at a higher level than it was this time last expansion. That is defined as growth. Not decline, not stagnation/stable. Growth. Increase. Higher than it was then.

So it's hard to make the case the Devs have a lot of apologizing to do.

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Again, I say this as a person who wants some changes - I REALLY want Exploration Zones back, and would love to see more open world content and more heterogeneity within some of the roles, particularly Healers and to a lesser extent, Tanks, and I think the combat system/encounter design needs to be changed, particularly in reference to mitigation checks, and that Job design needs to be less oGCD/weave based on at least some Jobs with more strategic GCD focus (contrast the four present Healer Jobs to BLU in Healer Mimicry using GCD heals to see how different the two playstyles are and feel) - but objectively, by even the most pessimistic numbers, the data does not suggest that the Devs have made huge mistakes, that the game is dying, or even that the game has plateaued.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

etc

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20,000+ people are logged in to Mare at any given time. What's the bet that most of the people playing on PC are doing so because it's a better version of Second Life, and not to play the actual game? The devs could stop making content and people would still play, because it's the players that are making the content now.

This is what FFXIV is like on PC. This is why people are subbing. And this is because the amount of gameplay content has fallen. Square Enix's weakness and ineptitude pushed actual players out and allowed habitual TOS-breakers to take over.

https://files.catbox.moe/3vyb1a.png

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Curious to know regarding the dissapointment in the relic grinds AND the Mt.Rokkon Savage rewards being absolute donkey.

How many of you are finally giving up this game and quitting and leaving forever? I'm DYING to know your thoughts.

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What disappointment? Relic was as expected, and less grindy than in past expansions which is good. As for anything Savage, I literally couldn't care less.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I think Asmongold said it best. If everyone or if 90% of the playerbase actually just quit right now, SE would immediately do a 180 with FFXIV in a heartbeat.

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The thing is, it doesn't appear anywhere close to 90% of the playerbase agree with the doomposters and would quit. Tons of people - we don't know the percent, but it's very likely higher than 10% - seem to still very much enjoy the game. Even a lot who have quibbles with it still enjoy it overall while wanting some changes. It's VERY unlikely there's going to be a 90% dropoff of players. People self-sort between MMOs over time. People that don't like a lot of what FFXIV has have already either allowed their subs to lapse or moved on/back to other MMOs. If all the really discontented people quit, that probably wouldn't be anywhere close to 90%.

The question there is more "At what percent does it become significant?", which must also factor against the fact new people are coming in all the time. So say 25% would be significant. Then not only would you have to have 25% quit, you'd also need an additional X%, where X is the amount of new people coming into the game.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'm hopeful but I can understand why some are ambivalent.

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I agree with most of what you said in this post. This point I want to take note of, though. Ambivalent I can understand - EW was largely "ShB 2.0", and as much flack as people give the SB to ShB transition (particularly on the Healer forums), the changes were a lot less major than people think; the Relic grind was SIMILAR (albeit Covid interrupted), the patch cycles were more formalized, but followed the same formula of some new story, a new dungeon, a new trial, every other a new set of 4 raid bosses, the same tome and token and hunt progression systems, and so on. ShB's big changes to SB were simplifying Healer damage rotations, Tank threat generation, and eventually formalizing the patch cadence. EW's "innovations" other than SMN and PLD were largely the Relic "grind" becoming a second Tomestone weapon that didn't require raiding and the 2 min meta. As much as people (including me) attack the latter, players were already trying to align buffs in ShB as well, particularly 1 min ones, and some raid groups picking Jobs whose bursts aligned, so this was again more formalizing a thing already being done anyway.

Ambivalent I understand, since 6.X has largely been like 5.X which was largely like 4.X in terms of content, cadence, game systems, and encounter/fight design.

What I don't understand are the doomposters saying things are so much worse when...they're largely the same. And player numbers are higher, meaning the game is growing either due to or in spite of it.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

No need to go into hyperboles, I'm sure some people who consider themselves midcore are having fun, but if you look around in forums and reddits, you cannot deny content could be designed better for us.

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I mean, even I say that and you disparage me for it. :)

There's a wide gulf between "could be better" and "imaragequit! this game sucks! it's going to die!!"

(Also, I didn't comment on it, but your Second Life comment is moronic - no RPing here and I love the game just fine. No one in my FC does, I think one time they all went around venues for an evening just to see what it was about and were more amused by an Omega Legend being a cook somewhere than the actual "scene", etc etc. The game isn't depending on "Second Life" players, and it's unlikely they carry it anyway.)

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

20,000+ people are logged in to Mare at any given time. What's the bet that most of the people playing on PC are doing so because it's a better version of Second Life, and not to play the actual game? The devs could stop making content and people would still play, because it's the players that are making the content now.

This is what FFXIV is like on PC. This is why people are subbing. And this is because the amount of gameplay content has fallen. Square Enix's weakness and ineptitude pushed actual players out and allowed habitual TOS-breakers to take over.

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No, it's not.

You're trying to make a sweeping statement, and from that more sweeping statements.

PROVE RIGHT NOW that EVERYONE on PC FFXIV is subbing because they are playing "better Second Life". Show your work. Where is your evidence?

Right, you have none.

So your argument that it's "because the amount of gameplay content has fallen" is vacuous, since you don't even know the "better Second Life" is happening in the first place. This further compounds into yet another error when you insist it's SE's "weakness and ineptitude" that "pushed actual players out", since you've provided no evidence that "actual players" have even been "pushed...out".

I'm an actual player.
I haven't been pushed out.

Same with many others.

You can't start with a flawed premise you cannot prove, then draw a conclusion based on that, then draw another conclusion based on THAT, especially when your latter premises seem not to agree with the data.