Is EX/Savage content a battle or a dance number?

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Originally Posted by Awha

That is unfair, didn't you know that you that ones skill at their role should not be predicated on their ability to press movement keys while performing said role.

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What would you say define one's skill at their role? What would a good healer be? I can spam Cure III endlessly on Almagest to make sure people barely get scratched by it. That doesn't make me a good healer at all.

I feel as if there's a gross over-simplification of how mechanics are employed in this game. Everything can basically be summed up on checks (be it DPS, Tank or Healers) that are paired with reaction tests - with each fight having different levels of execution/coordination difficulty. Dismissing this as "just press movement keys - this isn't skill!" is wrong on so many levels. This is the same thing as saying people who can kill bosses in difficult action games without taking a hit aren't skilled because they are just moving and adjusting to the patterns thrown at them.

Considering everything (even RNG) in this game is scripted sure it feels like a dance I guess. Although one look at OP's logs gives a better indication to his reasoning imo. Unless it's a player vs another player (pvp) then everything is going to feel like a "dance" as you say. Even then, it's still not too different. That's kind of how games work... The only difference in raiding is how fast you can complete it and the numbers you put up. Everything else is the same dance for any raid/dungeon/etc in general.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

EX/Savage content isn't harder battles.

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Just a tip: You might get more enjoyment out of it if you didn't play as only a heal bot all the time.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

What would you say define one's skill at their role? What would a good healer be? I can spam Cure III endlessly on Almagest to make sure people barely get scratched by it. That doesn't make me a good healer at all.

I feel as if there's a gross over-simplification of how mechanics are employed in this game. Everything can basically be summed up on checks (be it DPS, Tank or Healers) that are paired with reaction tests - with each fight having different levels of execution/coordination difficulty. Dismissing this as "just press movement keys - this isn't skill!" is wrong on so many levels. This is the same thing as saying people who can kill bosses in difficult action games without taking a hit aren't skilled because they are just moving and adjusting to the patterns thrown at them.

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My fault should have put a sarcasm tag before my post.

The comment was in regard to a comment the OP made where he said that he feels as if he is a good healer, and one should not judge his ability to heal around a dance number. Something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Awha

My fault should have put a sarcasm tag before my post.

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I was wondering if you were being sarcastic as well (hard to tell on the internet!), but considering some remarks I've seen in this thread...

My point still stands though.

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Originally Posted by -BlueGreen-

Basically, Mario wouldn't be nearly as popular today if Nintendo had decided that worlds 1-7 would be straightforward and easy, but world 8 would be insanely hard to where only about 10% of players could clear it. For a player clearing 80% of the content of a game, it's not unreasonable for them to believe the last 20% won't be much different. And sure, while savage/ultimate isn't really story, I think a lot of the friction between player groups on this issue stems from the sheer jump in difficulty between story and ex/savage content. Many players see that content and want a clear of it for the sake of having a clear of it.

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I feel like this argument would make more sense for the Coil days when the raid had unique fights and story. And indeed, as someone that wasn't good enough to clear t9 I was frustrated by that wall at the time.

These days Ex's and Savages are harder versions of existing fights and presented as retellings by the Wandering Minstrel or simulations. To my knowledge the last time a difficult fight was treated as a real event in the story were Bismark Ex and Ravana Ex in Heavensward. Those were also the last time the associated quests required you to beat the fights to complete them instead of just unlocking them.

As someone who has only cleared V1S I don't feel like I'm being left out of content. It's more like I've chosen to play a game on Normal or Easy instead of trying Hard.

No opinion on whether fights are too scripted or should have a better learning curve. I'll leave discussions like that to the people that actually run the content while it's relevant.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I feel like this argument would make more sense for the Coil days when the raid was a unique fights and story. And indeed, as someone that wasn't good enough to clear t9 I was frustrated by that wall at the time.

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I think the difficulty jump argument is still relevant, personally. Speaking for myself, I would like to try out Savage content, but there's no real way for me to dip my feet in the water before diving right in. I'd have to commit wholeheartedly to gearing my White Mage up as much as possible; I'd have to find a static party needing a Healing role; I'd have to research the mechanics and optimize my rotations. That's a lot of work to do before I even set foot into a Savage instance.

Now, I personally don't mind that much. I'm fine puttering around doing more casual things. But I do think the lack of an in-between difficulty level causes unnecessary and nontrivial friction.

As for the 'are fights too scripted' question, my opinion is that yes, without a doubt, they are. The jump-rope nature of fights is a really terrible way to manage difficulty; playing at an elite level needs to mean more than being an expert at moving according to pattern. What I'd personally like to see done is introduce a new type of difficulty, one that emphasizes a proper mastery of abilities. For example, for DD, this might be the boss creature becoming especially vulnerable to certain types of attacks. For Healers, it might be attacks becoming aspected to a certain element (coupled with the much-needed introduction of elemental strengths / weaknesses). For Tanks, this could look like erratic enmity behavior requiring a specific type of management to overcome. For those who played FFXI, this could be a similar sort of system to proc'ing monsters in Abyssea - only instead of primarily impacting drops, it would impact only the fight. This type of difficulty could be layered on top of existing scripted behavior, and the punishment for failing a 'dance move' could simply be lessened.

The net effect would be to keep enemy behavior predictable, weaken the reliance on knowing a monster's patterns and being able to flawlessly react to all moves, and increase the emphasis on being able to adapt one's rotations and react quickly with required abilities.

Unfortunately, I doubt SE will ever move in this direction. It would almost certainly require the introduction of additional complexity to player toolkits (elemental resistances and strengths; more of an emphasis on support-style moves like Heavy, Slow, maybe add in more abilities for Blind and Paralyze, etc.), which they seem loathe to consider. I maintain, however, that this would probably be the best way to change the style of difficulty of FFXIV, without resorting to lazy (and potentially problematic) RNG.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I think the difficulty jump argument is still relevant, personally. Speaking for myself, I would like to try out Savage content, but there's no real way for me to dip my feet in the water before diving right in. I'd have to commit wholeheartedly to gearing my White Mage up as much as possible; I'd have to find a static party needing a Healing role; I'd have to research the mechanics and optimize my rotations. That's a lot of work to do before I even set foot into a Savage instance.

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This is not what Savage is now. You can perfectly well enter OS1-OS3 in minimum item level requirement gear (up to item level 320) without melds, food or pots. You can watch a guide but you don't really have to study any of those, and you're likely to beat OS1 and OS2 either in a few pulls or at least within first lockout. In OS1 and OS2 you need to barely heal at all. OS3 may take a few parties to beat and there you'll have to plan your healing a bit. OS4 is the only one where it may take some time for you to beat, but it's also the easiest last raid tier fight in this game ever. You do not need a static for any Savage floor.

It's so easy to say "Oh, this is nothing more than a dance! Where is my test as a healer!?" when you're facing content at a far higher level than when intended. Already, others have pointed out that os1 and 2 are unrepresentative of what savage can really be. I wonder if OP would not feel overwhelmed in healing the tanks during the apanda's appearance during its initial release. Keep in mind those things must be taken down quickly or you simply would not meet the DPS check.

Another thing, I find it funny how OP's oblivious to the subtext of his opinion. It implies artificial difficulty, and thus, artificial skill. Still, I shall be the bigger man and forgive OP, for he knows not what he says.