Cleric stance needs change just for melding sake as healer

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

I'm supporting healer accuracy because it's not justified and SE already admitted it was their mistake and there will be some changes soon. However, Piety is not an issue. I would like you to be on the same board here. Every healers get Piety from the gear, it might not be on every piece, but just good enough. It's not that much of a deal. Also, stacking piety is a personal choice, since high piety vs high crit or high det will putup a good competition. Meanwhile, accuracy will prevent you from dealing damage and will result in waste of mana, waste of time. Piety and Accuracy are 2 different things.

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i remember a time where piety was not on almost every piece of gear. you can argue the same with accuracy for dps classes. if there are many pieces with accurcy on it in the current tier it's not an issue. and probably the piety cap is not that high. but if you need a bard playing manasong you are under the piety cap. same can be said about dps classes, because a bard can lower the accuracy cap. so you can choose to stack more det / crit to increase the raid-dps if you sacrifice some dps of the bard.

however, it has nothing to do with the actual needed piety or accuracy. the stats may be different, but they are working the same: you need to hit the specific cap for the content and everything more is a waste.

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Originally Posted by Tint

piety doesn't improve healing or dpsing or anything. it just prevents you from going out of mana. if you have not enough piety you will have sereous troubles to clear content. if you have too much you are wasting your stats.

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Except the amount of mana you use is contingent on your ability to (not) overheal, res, among other things. It's not an objective numerical requirement and you have more than enough abilities to ensure you have enough mana anyway. There's no "specific" cap for a given fight because it's a variable (compared to accuracy requirement where it is static).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

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Concise has never been my forte to be honest, and there are things that just can't be TLDR'd either, lol. Also, Energy Drain does indeed not restore any MP when it misses, just to answer the easy part of your post.

Your post does remind me of one thing and it's partially a reiteration of a post I made prior in the thread.

Raid DPS has an infinite ceiling. The more DPS your tanks and DPS (and healers) can do to the boss, the faster it'll die, reducing risk to the raid wiping (either to mechanics or the hard enrage). Even if a 13 minute boss can be down in 10 minutes, increasing a raids DPS will never outright hamper the raid (outside of pushing a mechanic too fast ALA Levithan EX / Ifrit EX but that's more bad battle design than naught).

However, from a healer standpoint, increasing a healer's healing capacity may not have any notable benefit to the actual fight itself. If a single healer is required to output 2,000 HPS to maintain party health in a fight, being able to output 2,500 HPS can lead to overhealing and wasted resources. Admittedly, higher upfront healing may also allow for more DPS windows too as party wounds are restored faster, etc etc.

This part of the reason why I do believe there is an optimal choice (I'm a huge proponent of Accuracy melds), but there isn't necessarily a bad choice. If your melds are doing absolutely nothing for you but your gear has enough ilvl to make up for that deficit of secondaries, then are you really under performing? *Queue philosophical discussion here*

As a tangent to the above, also take into account that "healer melds" also increase a healer's DPS potential to a lesser extent. Likewise, Accuracy melds also indirectly lowers the healing requirement of the fight because if the boss dies faster, the healer will obviously need to heal less damage overall.

The reason I bring this all up though is because healer melds aren't a simple black and white answer like it is for DPS and tanks. The effectiveness of a healer is less measurable than the other roles and on top of that certain factors outside of the healer's control also affects their ability to contribute to the party (people not performing mechanics properly, taking unnecessary damage, etc etc). While it's true healer's have to choose between healing better or DPSing better, they have a finite limit of healing requirement versus a Tank or DPS' infinite DPS ceiling. This is compounded by the fact that healer contribution is directly tied to their gear, skill, and other players they are healing - thus making no easy way to determine if there even is a right choice for healer melds (or if they even need melds at all). *Insert conversation about the Illusion of Choice here*

... nothing like talking in a giant circle and getting nothing resolved in the same post. lol.

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Originally Posted by winsock

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I'm okay with this agreement to disagree. I can understand the point you're trying to make and I also agree what I'll probably be unable to dissuade you from that course either.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The reason I bring this all up though is because healer melds aren't a simple black and white answer like it is for DPS and tanks. The effectiveness of a healer is less measurable than the other roles and on top of that certain factors outside of the healer's control also affects their ability to contribute to the party (people not performing mechanics properly, taking unnecessary damage, etc etc). While it's true healer's have to choose between healing better or DPSing better, they have a finite limit of healing requirement versus a Tank or DPS' infinite DPS ceiling. This is compounded by the fact that healer contribution is directly tied to their gear, skill, and other players they are healing - thus making no easy way to determine if there even is a right choice for healer melds (or if they even need melds at all). *Insert conversation about the Illusion of Choice here*

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Indeed, personally I hate the "Illusion of Choice" as an argument - I feel it is a buzzword used to backup the idea of removing choice all together. Personally, I see it more as the choice you as a game developer have added is poorly thought out.

In this sense, yes, there is little point to adding healing abilities when your healing is already outpacing the content (which is nearly always the case).

It's funny, I find melding healer gear to be far easier than anyone else? Healer: "Is there a materia slot on this gear? Yes: Meld accuracy." Done. Other jobs need to do things like manage their accuracy to not go over the top, maximize certain stats (spell speed or crit) but adjust and use other stats as necessary when the gear already has it.

Ultimately though, the choice in this game is severely lacking.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Where did this rumor come from? You're the second person to say this and it is blatantly untrue and has ALWAYS been untrue.

I remember energy draining in T13 and getting so frustrated at it missing and not giving me MP. And I just missed an energy drain yesterday and also didn't get MP back.

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To be honest, I guess I just don't pay attention enough to it. I swear in T13 I was missing e-drain constantly, but was getting my MP back. I was focusing way more on healing and mechanics though, so I may have just misunderstood what I was seeing (i.e. MP came back from aetherflow or who knows).

Thank you all for clearing that up for me.

Just leave clerics alone and increase base accuracy on healers

Accuracy should just stop existing altogether imo. It's an annoying as hell substat!

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Accuracy should just stop existing altogether imo. It's an annoying as hell substat!

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Yes, absolutely. I'm really just gonna quote the WoW devs on this because they have made the best and most convincing argument against "cap or bust" stats like Accuracy when they removed hit rating (and expertise) in Warlords of Draenor:

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Originally Posted by Warlords of Draenor Patch Notes

Hit and Expertise were not fun stats. They acted to remove a penalty, instead of making you stronger. Most players treated Hit/Expertise caps as mandatory (rightfully so), with failure to reach those caps as a trap of sorts. After adjusting, gemming, and reforging gear to meet that cap, players could then go after the actual damage-increasing stats. We decided to remove Hit and Expertise, and make it so you don't need them. We still want melee specializations to attack creatures from behind when possible, so attacks from the front will have a 3% chance to be parried that cannot be eliminated for non-tanking specializations.

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Source: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...#hit_expertise

I'm all for more healer acc...either from a buff on cleric stance, higher character initial stat, putting more on gear initially, or just removing the penalty acc stat all together. Missing an energy drain is super annoying on sch. Also I hate that fractal, neverreap, and a few other "lower" level 60 dungeons still have a higher acc cap than the newer ones. I miss more often in neverreap and it has given me a new level of hate for that place. I even have acc melded with Vs to about 500ish! If I put on my over melded 220 gear that I have to use in savage raids then I don't miss as I have about 570 acc then.

To be honest, it's kinda dumb thata big robot like Brute Justice or something as big as Sephirot can "dodge" attacks. Can you even imagine Sephirot dodging stones thrown at him by a WHM?