What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

30 minutes of defending why island sanctuary, which sounds like little more than Doman Enclave from the features they reveal, is actually way more in depth than that they swear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

---

https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.c...g?t=1553277682

Sample of [Golbez, Clad in Darkness Soken Mix] HOPEFULLY

6.2 MSQ preview: (not) Golbez saying something ominous about us intruders and (not) Scarmiglione volunteering. Zenos' Avatar doing something possibly meeting/spying on us, Y'sthola shot, Estinien shot, Dragon Homunculus saying something profound then name of the patch.


Criterion Dungeon Preview(maybe gameplay shown?)

Best part! Island Sanctuary finally revealed and (hopefully I'm wrong) stream chat outrage about something that we were told to temper our hype about many of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

---

Not much, just a general overview of what's to come in 6.2. Hopefully more details of what Island Sanctuary is.

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

• We have to accept that 7 Rejoinings have limited Hydaelyn's ability to communicate with men, and generally weakened her, despite 7 being the same number of Rejoinings since the start of A Realm Reborn, the time when she talked to men all the time and actively protected us from the Ultima spell
• We have to accept that several formerly intelligent characters thought it wise, in the face of the Apocalypse, to have the WoL waste their time helping nerds read books in the Nerdery, taking their focus off the End of the World Tower they are uniquely qualified to deal with
• We have to accept the WoL saw an autonomous, less-than-lethal grenade drone and didn't mention it or its MANY uses to ANYONE
• Thus, we have to accept that the WoL is cannonically dumber than gibbon turds
• We have to accept that Nidhana seriously thought it was a good idea to test the anti-tempering scale herself. Risking the top of the chain of command for absolutely no benefit
• We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone
• We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal
• We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies
• We have to accept the suicidally idiotic plan to completely non-lethally invade Garlemald actually works
• BECAUSE we have to accept that hitting people with my gigantic axe just knocks them over with Looney Toons stars around their head. Instead of killing them like it had done to everything else throughout the whole game since level bloody 1.

to be continued

continued from above:

• We have to accept two unarmed women in street clothes seriously fled onto a monster covered ice shelf in the direction of a dead end just to avoid talking to someone they don't like
• We have to accept whoever wrote that wants us to feel sorry for those two Darwin Award Winners
• We have to accept that Thancred had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept that Thancred didn't tell anyone that he had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept we didn't murder Thancred (this is the point I gave up on the expansion)
• We have to accept no one complaining about the cold the entire time ever thought to put on a winter hat to cover their doofus carnival ears
• We have to accept no one lost an earlobe to frostbite
• We have to accept the Loporrits had hostile robots wandering around the dining room FOR NO RAISIN!
• We have to accept that Hermes was mentally and emotionally defective enough to have a breakdown because we had to euthanize a wild animal before it killed everything else in Elpis
• We have to accept that despite being such a fragile clod, Hermes rose to be in charge of Elpis and was being considered for Convocation-ship
• We have to accept that every planet a Meteion went to had developed sapient life that had subsequently went extinct
• Not one planet just didn't have life on it. Or just had early aquatic life, or was in a Dinosaur stage, or had a society that hadn't yet destroyed themselves, or any other of many possibilities. HOW CONVENIENT for clown plot
• We have to accept Hermes has an Insta-Cast spell strong enough to bind the WoL, the former Azem, and the current Emet Selch. And also some other guy.
• We have to accept Hermes didn't use this incredibly useful spell TWO MINUTES EARLIER when he was fighting us.
• We have to accept that bind spell was either broken or ran out of duration JUST after Hermes finished programming Kairos, and also JUST IN TIME for everyone to act in time for Venat and WoL to escape. HOW LUCKY
• We have to accept that EMET SELCH, formerly highly intelligent and practical, spent time saying a few final words to the WoL instead of acting to escape himself
• We have to accept that Venat refuses to even attempt to bring Emet Selch into the fold, despite his objective and demonstrable status as an ally. Because this clown plot couldn't occur otherwise
• We have to accept all the various and myriad lore shattering lunacy that occurred in that Venat cutscene as the WoL was returning to the present day (that is another tl;dr for another time)

continued again

• We have to accept the WoL did not get any closer to the Satrap despite running towards him for several seconds
• We have to accept that some Blasphemy cascade situation didn't completely unravel anywhere in the world while we were VERY LEISURELY making our way through the rest of the extremely padded out plot
• Seriously. Kugane, Doma, Azim Steppe, Bozja, etc, completely unharmed. The giga-blasphemies masquerading as proper job quests? Completely contained offscreen nothing else to worry about
• Yeah just do some chores and kill some time and walk and talk for several hours as the world is supposedly ending no big deal
• We have to accept Y'Shtola sincerely suggested that Hydaelyn sundering Man, and thereby reducing an individual's aetheric density, rendered us more resistant to dynamis, even though that is EXACTLY the opposite of how it had been established to work. I'm fairly certain it was Y'Shtola herself that spelled out how the Unsundered didn't themselves turn into Blasphemies because of their aetheric density.
• We have to accept that Hydaelyn played along with Y'Shtola's idiocy because Hydaelyn herself just realized what an idiotic idea sundering Man was
• We have to accept that only the "Core Scions" were loaded up for the one and only chance to save the universe
• We have to accept that we didn't use any of the spare time in the plot to gather extra help for the One And Only Shot to save the actual universe.
• Really no one thought to try and wrangle up any of Gaius, Lucia, Hoary Boulder And Friends, anyone from the various combat guilds, anyone from the various job quests, the crazy lady from Azim Steppe, literally even that Assassin Fisherlady from Heavensward there's plenty of bloody room on the Ragnarok and the universe is at stake why are we pretending we have the roster limitations of a basketball team who wrote this abject garbage
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola unironically told us not to bring them back by using Azem's crystal, even though there was no reason NOT to bring back Y'shtola, Urianger, and Estinien once the WoL reached the next Aetheryte.
• We have to accept that Zenos, after multiple times refusing to instigate a fight with the WoL because there was a lack of "despair" or whatever edgelord nonsense, all of a sudden is cool with challenging the WoL to an explicitly voluntary duel.
• We thus have to accept that the writers of this decade long mess went through all the trouble to bring Zenos back from the whole dead, but not for one good reason.

This expansion was a catastrophic failure of characterization, continuity, and common sense from start to finish. Or the plot of the expansion was, anyway. The gameplay """content""" is, of course, the exact same loop of tired tripe we've been repeating since Heavensward. And I still can't actually WEAR my SAMhat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

---

Nothing. Somehow, I still expect to be let down.

More seriously:
-Golbez
-Scarmiglione as the 6.2 Trial boss
-Zenos's avatar
-Island Sanctuary being the "Minion Farm" they alluded to back in Shadowbringers Q&As/Live Letters/whatever.
-An unsurprising dearth of Garlemald in gameplay footage/screenshots, or indeed any Endwalker zone except Thavnair and Collegetopia
-Oh right, 6.2 is also an 8-man raid patch, so they have to show something from Pandaemonium. Probably the first two boss designs, then.
-We might get a comment from Yoshi-P saying how surprised he is that players have taken a liking to Themis and Erichthonius, since they're scary Ancients
-Acknowledgement of the Mt. Everest of feedback they've received regarding Hrothgar's additional hairs/ear removal, and a reminder that game development is hard (we know)
-Acknowledgement of the Olympus Mons of feedback they've received regarding the 6.1 changes to Samurai, and a reminder that game development is hard (we know)
-Criterion Dungeons have been delayed to 6.3, and an apology for the inconvenience. Not a word of what Criterion Dungeons will actually be. (Seriously, what are they?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

Really no one thought to try and wrangle up any of Gaius, Lucia, Hoary Boulder And Friends, anyone from the various combat guilds, anyone from the various job quests, the crazy lady from Azim Steppe, literally even that Assassin Fisherlady from Heavensward there's plenty of bloody room on the Ragnarok and the universe is at stake why are we pretending we have the roster limitations of a basketball team who wrote this abject garbage

---

Ah, but you see, if they brought in the expendables, someone might have actually died and we can't have that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

30 minutes of defending why island sanctuary, which sounds like little more than Doman Enclave from the features they reveal, is actually way more in depth than that they swear.

---

Nothing wrong with that, personally I'm really looking forward to hearing about all the new things island sanctuary isn't. Might even get a new problem that it won't address, but can't be too greedy.

Edit: Added below, because I can't stand seeing false, insulting statements going unchecked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies

---

Estinien is also pretty good at jumping

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

-Criterion Dungeons have been delayed to 6.3, and an apology for the inconvenience. Not a word of what Criterion Dungeons will actually be. (Seriously, what are they?)

---

Expecting them to tie to the relic, somehow. It's the one thing that didn't come up as its own entry and, if they follow SHB, .25 would be around the point it'd come out, so it'd tie in chronologically, if nothing else. Yoshi had mentioned during an interview to wanting to look into addressing the desire for smaller scale challenging content in the run up to EW, and this may be what it is, but in light of everything EW so far, I am going in with very minimal expectations. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

[*]We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone[*]We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal

---

My gripe with this complaint is that invading Garlemald had to happen, due to the existence of the Tower of Babil, and I got the impression that they were trying to minimize unnecessary casualties. I agree that expecting hostility without a single casualty would be unrealistic, but military operations with the goal of minimizing them has always been a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

[*]We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST

---

Yeah, to be honest, the game constantly forgets the Linkshells exist. Every time a mission goal involves "Fast-travel to X location and talk to Y character", I have to question why linkshells suddenly aren't an option for the character.

I still expect Criterion dungeons to not be significantly harder than Expert, and them hyping them up solely based on the party size flexibility...
This is the design team that hypes new expansion MSQ dungeons as "challenging dungeons" after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

I still expect Criterion dungeons to not be significantly harder than Expert, and them hyping them up solely based on the party size flexibility...
This is the design team that hypes new expansion MSQ dungeons as "challenging dungeons" after all.

---

lol some people really believe those will be 'savage' dungeons, the fact they can scale to party size literally rules that out. People are going to be very disappointed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

---

I'm just hoping for something as funny as the 2b hair. I need a good laugh, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

---

Honestly? Not a whole lot, some job adjustments for PVP and a merchandise plug for a FFXIV-themed tuba at the very end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

• We have to accept that 7 Rejoinings have limited Hydaelyn's ability to communicate with men, and generally weakened her, despite 7 being the same number of Rejoinings since the start of A Realm Reborn, the time when she talked to men all the time and actively protected us from the Ultima spell
• We have to accept that several formerly intelligent characters thought it wise, in the face of the Apocalypse, to have the WoL waste their time helping nerds read books in the Nerdery, taking their focus off the End of the World Tower they are uniquely qualified to deal with
• We have to accept the WoL saw an autonomous, less-than-lethal grenade drone and didn't mention it or its MANY uses to ANYONE
• Thus, we have to accept that the WoL is cannonically dumber than gibbon turds
• We have to accept that Nidhana seriously thought it was a good idea to test the anti-tempering scale herself. Risking the top of the chain of command for absolutely no benefit
• We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone
• We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal
• We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies
• We have to accept the suicidally idiotic plan to completely non-lethally invade Garlemald actually works
• BECAUSE we have to accept that hitting people with my gigantic axe just knocks them over with Looney Toons stars around their head. Instead of killing them like it had done to everything else throughout the whole game since level bloody 1.

to be continued

---

Thank you for making one of my favorite series of posts ever (also if you have a really long post you can cut out the excess and edit it back in after posting)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

---

I could've suspended disbelief for most of it, but not:

1) The Scions' admiration of Hydaelyn despite her being an amalgamation of antagonistic ideologies they have historically opposed. They do unfortunately have a history of zealotry towards her dating back to ARR. However, Krile goes from supposedly being skeptical of Hydaelyn's nature and motivations to embracing her wholeheartedly because she was just too charming to resist (and the game does not attribute this to tempering). Not a single Scion gives a sanctimonious speech about how wrong her methods were or the fact that they're benefactors in a literal crime against humanity. Nor do they address the deeper implications of that given they're supposed to be our moral paragons in the game.

https://i.imgur.com/Ek4jBEH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zIOeuPv.jpg

2) The conflict between the presentation of Hermes (villain) and Venat (heroine) despite not only their motives (dissatisfaction with Ancient society) and results (end of Ancient civilization) being similar. Why is one bad and one good? Yoshi-P even compares Venat to the Ascians and, again, I'm left wondering why she's not also bad when she's guilty for as much and more while having less sympathetic intent.

3) The reasons for the sundering as a whole were not sufficient. Quoting Lurina from the lore forum: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get. I think the fact that these forums, the comments on Venat's entry in the JP character poll, and pretty much everywhere else the story is being discussed are filled with people expressing discomfort or irritation with it self-evident proof that the writers didn't quite make it."

4) Nobody being angry with Venat after the fact. The WoL clearly cared about Emet and Hyth, they trusted Venat to do the right thing, and she arguably didn't (don't @ me with tImE lOoP). The WoL nevertheless is "fond" of her. Emet, who is everywhere presented as having suffered through 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak", waffles between taking digs at her (I only accept the reason he wasn't furious is because he'd either already gotten it out of his system or, like Brinne said, didn't want to upset the WoL) and commending her, which was so inconsistent with his character it wasn't believable. We got more bitterness out of Elidibus, who died never learning the truth.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things that may come to me after I post this. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Ah, but you see, if they brought in the expendables, someone might have actually died and we can't have that.

---

I was half joking about most of that lineup, but it is REALLY baffling no one got Gaius involved. From an in-universe perspective, he's a tremendous swordsman and a man of great focus and determination. He'd be perfect to bring along to a fight in Emotionscape. From a meta-perspective he'd be perfect to bring because MAYBE I could believe for five seconds that any sacrifice he committed would actually stick. But the writers just kinda FORGOT the guy existed ever since he was written out of the Garlemald invasion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Estinien is also pretty good at jumping

---

That's a fair point, I apologize. Still don't know how that is supposed to help subdue berserking zombies though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

My gripe with this complaint is that invading Garlemald had to happen, due to the existence of the Tower of Babil, and I got the impression that they were trying to minimize unnecessary casualties. I agree that expecting hostility without a single casualty would be unrealistic, but military operations with the goal of minimizing them has always been a thing.

---

My initial understanding was likewise that the goal was to MINIMIZE casualties, particularly to tempered Garleans that were otherwise civilians. And I was totally okay with that. But then we got the scene where Estinien drops some Garlean grunt and Y'Shtola chides him for even INJURING the guy because the two teenagers have said we aren't supposed to kill ANYONE. And then throughout the gameplay in that segment everyone I crack over the skull with my big ole honking axe just falls down with a boo-boo.

Instead of writing anything remotely intelligent for how our characters smartly minimized casualties, they just had The Plot Itself declare that NO ONE DIED LOL. It could be said that I'm being very uncharitable in interpreting what's being shown in that Y'Shtola and Estinien clip, and that despite it suggesting the opposite, the understanding among the characters and in the plot is that there were casualties, and we simply tried to keep them to a bare minimum. But there is still no excuse for no one bringing up the Conquerer's Chain. That is a mistake literally none of these characters could conceivably make.

Quote:

---

Yeah, to be honest, the game constantly forgets the Linkshells exist. Every time a mission goal involves "Fast-travel to X location and talk to Y character", I have to question why linkshells suddenly aren't an option for the character.

---

The game forgets anything that could be a hindrance to either the plot or the padding exists whenever such a situation arises. It's laughably bad writing for any story, but particularly bad for the video game medium.

Can't wait to see what an absolute clown show FFXVI is gonna be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

2) The conflict between the presentation of Hermes (villain) and Venat (heroine) despite not only their motives (dissatisfaction with Ancient society) and results (end of Ancient civilization) being similar. Why is one bad and one good? Yoshi-P even compares Venat to the Ascians and, again, I'm left wondering why she's not also bad when she's guilty for as much and more while having less sympathetic intent.

---

That's just it -- according to the writers themselves, they didn't intend EITHER of them to be considered "bad". They use terms like "mistake" and "important first step" to describe Hermes' actions. To the writers, the Ancients are not a group of people unfairly and unjustly murdered, they're a group of wannabe gods that thought themselves above suffering and death before being ready for it.

As I've mentioned, there's a sort of "human worship" that the story fully buys into, whereas the present day humankind (that is, all intelligent species) are inherently better or more worthy than other forms of life. Avoiding that was why I was hoping that END didn't devolve into "punch God with the power of friendship" that most other JRPGS do, but it arguably did something just as bad with "Something else already punched our strawman for God, so now punch THAT instead with the power of friendship".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

the comments on Venat's entry in the JP character poll

---

I missed this. When/where did this happen?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

My initial understanding was likewise that the goal was to MINIMIZE casualties, particularly to tempered Garleans that were otherwise civilians. And I was totally okay with that. But then we got the scene where Estinien drops some Garlean grunt and Y'Shtola chides him for even INJURING the guy because the two teenagers have said we aren't supposed to kill ANYONE. And then throughout the gameplay in that segment everyone I crack over the skull with my big ole honking axe just falls down with a boo-boo.

Instead of writing anything remotely intelligent for how our characters smartly minimized casualties, they just had The Plot Itself declare that NO ONE DIED LOL. It could be said that I'm being very uncharitable in interpreting what's being shown in that Y'Shtola and Estinien clip, and that despite it suggesting the opposite, the understanding among the characters and in the plot is that there were casualties, and we simply tried to keep them to a bare minimum. But there is still no excuse for no one bringing up the Conquerer's Chain. That is a mistake literally none of these characters could conceivably make.

---

Eh. I can see the problem, sure. But I guess it didn't bother me any more than the 10,000 other missions we do where our mission is to spar with or weaken some type of target without killing them. If I can shoot somebody with a steampunk shotgun at short range and have them just down on their knees and panting in the next cutscene, I've already checked out of expecting realistic wounds regardless of the level of violence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

-

---

These are all great but the #1 thing I cannot suspend disbelief for is the fact that we had to maintain the course of events when we went back in time, but G'raha gets to "if histree must be unwritten... let it be unwritten" all day and CREATE A SPLIT TIMELINE. Guess we're the only ones who deserved a better fate getting to avoid the 8UC, meanwhile this entire race of good people isn't allowed to avoid their literal extinction.

I like the point raised about the Ragnarok. It's such a large ship that it felt weird that so few people ended up boarding it.

It ties in to why I consider some elements of the storytelling in ESO and WoW to be superior. They leave room for the 'everyman' to get on board and go somewhere exotic and fanciful. Whether it be Draenor through the Dark Portal in WoW or Molag Bal's domain of Coldharbour. FFXIV spends far too much time building up the player character and the Scions as these uniquely special individuals who can go anywhere and accomplish anything but it quite simply doesn't feel earned to me at all.

I'd add the Plenty to all the above. As I said, I just couldn't take it seriously. Ditto with UT and the fake death march.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

These are all great but the #1 thing I cannot suspend disbelief for is the fact that we had to maintain the course of events when we went back in time, but G'raha gets to "if histree must be unwritten... let it be unwritten" all day and CREATE A SPLIT TIMELINE. Guess we're the only ones who deserved a better fate getting to avoid the 8UC, meanwhile this entire race of good people isn't allowed to avoid their literal extinction.

---

And any other stars that fell in the crosshairs of the Meteia's cosmic temper tantrum of despair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

That's just it -- according to the writers themselves, they didn't intend EITHER of them to be considered "bad". They use terms like "mistake" and "important first step" to describe Hermes' actions. To the writers, the Ancients are not a group of people unfairly and unjustly murdered, they're a group of wannabe gods that thought themselves above suffering and death before being ready for it.

---

I'd accept that if the Ascians weren't presented as being wholly in the wrong even as recently as the Omega quest chain. Meanwhile, history's two biggest antagonists are a "first step" and a "herois". It seems like if it happened to the Ancients? It's fine, they deserved it. Did it happen to the sundered? Unforgivable atrocities.

Note, I'm not trying to say the Ascians were right. I'm simply saying they set a precedent that is inconsistent with what came after despite the crimes of the Final Days and the Sundering being far more egregious.

Quote:

---

I missed this. When/where did this happen?

---

You can find the character poll link here along with some of the translated comments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

I'd add the Plenty to all the above.

---

I've had a hard time deciding whether this or the Ea were the stupidest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'd accept that if the Ascians weren't presented as being wholly in the wrong even as recently as the Omega quest chain. Meanwhile, history's two biggest antagonists are a "first step" and a "herois". It seems like if it happened to the Ancients? It's fine, they deserved it. Did it happen to the sundered? Unforgivable atrocities.
.

---

Yeah this is my problem, the actions Hermes and Venat take are as wicked as any of the antagonists the game as had before but it seems it's OK when the victims are arbitrarily called the wrong kinds of people so it's OK to systematically purge them. It's only bad when it's the the right kinds of people are going to be the victims

I feel like any time there's 5 or more characters on screen everyone, including the villains, and especially the WOL, collectively loses over 50 points of IQ.

Another Mass Effect post. I am almost finished with Mass Effect 3. Only have the Citadel DLC, Priority: Horizon, Priority: Citadel Headquarters, and Priority: Earth left. And I have to say

https://i.imgur.com/lYxFKUf.png

It is amazing just how much more threatening this feels than the Final Days. Every one of those nodes represents a nebula, and every one with a giant robot cuttlefish is one the Reapers are systematically cleansing of life. The entire plot of the Mass Effect Trilogy takes place in the Milky Way Galaxy, and only the Milky Way Galaxy. And not all of it is explored! And yet it still feels utterly massive compared to FFXIV's handling of the freakin' universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

• We have to accept that 7 Rejoinings have limited Hydaelyn's ability to communicate with men, and generally weakened her, despite 7 being the same number of Rejoinings since the start of A Realm Reborn, the time when she talked to men all the time and actively protected us from the Ultima spell
• We have to accept that several formerly intelligent characters thought it wise, in the face of the Apocalypse, to have the WoL waste their time helping nerds read books in the Nerdery, taking their focus off the End of the World Tower they are uniquely qualified to deal with
• We have to accept the WoL saw an autonomous, less-than-lethal grenade drone and didn't mention it or its MANY uses to ANYONE
• Thus, we have to accept that the WoL is cannonically dumber than gibbon turds
• We have to accept that Nidhana seriously thought it was a good idea to test the anti-tempering scale herself. Risking the top of the chain of command for absolutely no benefit
• We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone
• We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal
• We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies
• We have to accept the suicidally idiotic plan to completely non-lethally invade Garlemald actually works
• BECAUSE we have to accept that hitting people with my gigantic axe just knocks them over with Looney Toons stars around their head. Instead of killing them like it had done to everything else throughout the whole game since level bloody 1.

to be continued

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

continued from above:

• We have to accept two unarmed women in street clothes seriously fled onto a monster covered ice shelf in the direction of a dead end just to avoid talking to someone they don't like
• We have to accept whoever wrote that wants us to feel sorry for those two Darwin Award Winners
• We have to accept that Thancred had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept that Thancred didn't tell anyone that he had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept we didn't murder Thancred (this is the point I gave up on the expansion)
• We have to accept no one complaining about the cold the entire time ever thought to put on a winter hat to cover their doofus carnival ears
• We have to accept no one lost an earlobe to frostbite
• We have to accept the Loporrits had hostile robots wandering around the dining room FOR NO RAISIN!
• We have to accept that Hermes was mentally and emotionally defective enough to have a breakdown because we had to euthanize a wild animal before it killed everything else in Elpis
• We have to accept that despite being such a fragile clod, Hermes rose to be in charge of Elpis and was being considered for Convocation-ship
• We have to accept that every planet a Meteion went to had developed sapient life that had subsequently went extinct
• Not one planet just didn't have life on it. Or just had early aquatic life, or was in a Dinosaur stage, or had a society that hadn't yet destroyed themselves, or any other of many possibilities. HOW CONVENIENT for clown plot
• We have to accept Hermes has an Insta-Cast spell strong enough to bind the WoL, the former Azem, and the current Emet Selch. And also some other guy.
• We have to accept Hermes didn't use this incredibly useful spell TWO MINUTES EARLIER when he was fighting us.
• We have to accept that bind spell was either broken or ran out of duration JUST after Hermes finished programming Kairos, and also JUST IN TIME for everyone to act in time for Venat and WoL to escape. HOW LUCKY
• We have to accept that EMET SELCH, formerly highly intelligent and practical, spent time saying a few final words to the WoL instead of acting to escape himself
• We have to accept that Venat refuses to even attempt to bring Emet Selch into the fold, despite his objective and demonstrable status as an ally. Because this clown plot couldn't occur otherwise
• We have to accept all the various and myriad lore shattering lunacy that occurred in that Venat cutscene as the WoL was returning to the present day (that is another tl;dr for another time)

continued again

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

• We have to accept the WoL did not get any closer to the Satrap despite running towards him for several seconds
• We have to accept that some Blasphemy cascade situation didn't completely unravel anywhere in the world while we were VERY LEISURELY making our way through the rest of the extremely padded out plot
• Seriously. Kugane, Doma, Azim Steppe, Bozja, etc, completely unharmed. The giga-blasphemies masquerading as proper job quests? Completely contained offscreen nothing else to worry about
• Yeah just do some chores and kill some time and walk and talk for several hours as the world is supposedly ending no big deal
• We have to accept Y'Shtola sincerely suggested that Hydaelyn sundering Man, and thereby reducing an individual's aetheric density, rendered us more resistant to dynamis, even though that is EXACTLY the opposite of how it had been established to work. I'm fairly certain it was Y'Shtola herself that spelled out how the Unsundered didn't themselves turn into Blasphemies because of their aetheric density.
• We have to accept that Hydaelyn played along with Y'Shtola's idiocy because Hydaelyn herself just realized what an idiotic idea sundering Man was
• We have to accept that only the "Core Scions" were loaded up for the one and only chance to save the universe
• We have to accept that we didn't use any of the spare time in the plot to gather extra help for the One And Only Shot to save the actual universe.
• Really no one thought to try and wrangle up any of Gaius, Lucia, Hoary Boulder And Friends, anyone from the various combat guilds, anyone from the various job quests, the crazy lady from Azim Steppe, literally even that Assassin Fisherlady from Heavensward there's plenty of bloody room on the Ragnarok and the universe is at stake why are we pretending we have the roster limitations of a basketball team who wrote this abject garbage
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola unironically told us not to bring them back by using Azem's crystal, even though there was no reason NOT to bring back Y'shtola, Urianger, and Estinien once the WoL reached the next Aetheryte.
• We have to accept that Zenos, after multiple times refusing to instigate a fight with the WoL because there was a lack of "despair" or whatever edgelord nonsense, all of a sudden is cool with challenging the WoL to an explicitly voluntary duel.
• We thus have to accept that the writers of this decade long mess went through all the trouble to bring Zenos back from the whole dead, but not for one good reason.

This expansion was a catastrophic failure of characterization, continuity, and common sense from start to finish. Or the plot of the expansion was, anyway. The gameplay """content""" is, of course, the exact same loop of tired tripe we've been repeating since Heavensward. And I still can't actually WEAR my SAMhat

---

Excuse me while I vomit blood uncontrollably because this sums up my issues with the expansion, especially the Garlemald arc, and especially how so much requires the WoL or other supposedly intelligent characters to be stupid to accommodate the terrible writing. Agreed with everything. THANK. YOU.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Another Mass Effect post. I am almost finished with Mass Effect 3. Only have the Citadel DLC, Priority: Horizon, Priority: Citadel Headquarters, and Priority: Earth left. And I have to say

https://i.imgur.com/lYxFKUf.png

It is amazing just how much more threatening this feels than the Final Days. Every one of those nodes represents a nebula, and every one with a giant robot cuttlefish is one the Reapers are systematically cleansing of life. The entire plot of the Mass Effect Trilogy takes place in the Milky Way Galaxy, and only the Milky Way Galaxy. And not all of it is explored! And yet it still feels utterly massive compared to FFXIV's handling of the freakin' universe.

---

ME3 really isn't the best example for reasons that might become apparent to you when you finish the game. I'd also argue the gravity of Priority: Earth isn't too far off from the gravity of the 2nd Thavnair story section, with the big issue with the latter being that said gravity didn't extend far beyond that.

I don't want to spoil anything for you though so I can't really elaborate further.

Yeah, I've been getting similar vibes from Dragon's Dogma. The world has teeth. It feels dangerous. Things happen. Not everything works out perfectly for the protagonist.

It's just so weird to me that FFXIV claims to want to tap more into the single player game side of things but is consistently avoiding any meaningful change or lasting consequences.

We've gotten to the point where if certain characters show up or the story takes us back to an older location then it's obvious that even minor characters will be perfectly safe. All to maintain the status quo at any cost...but mysteriously never really throwing a bone to those of us who favour the antagonists and would enjoy seeing at least some of them stick around without being forced to lose everything, proclaim that their ideals were 'always misguided' or just generally end up going in an utterly bizarre direction far removed from what appealed to those who liked the character in the first place.

In other words, putting the game closer to more of the single player titles and rival MMO's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

ME3 really isn't the best example for reasons that might become apparent to you when you finish the game. I'd also argue the gravity of Priority: Earth isn't too far off from the gravity of the 2nd Thavnair story section, with the big issue with the latter being that said gravity didn't extend far beyond that.

I don't want to spoil anything for you though so I can't really elaborate further.

---

Thank you for the consideration. I do appreciate it.

But it's Mass Effect 3. The ending controversy sort of overshadowed the rest of the game, to the point where despite loving ME1 and ME2, I never bothered picking up or even renting the third game. Apparently I've missed a genuinely fun and engaging multiplayer mode because of that. Shame. I've heard the Extended Cut makes the ending better, but in the same sort of terms that I've seen some folks describe Endwalker 6.1's Omega questline: "It gives me more info/a better perspective of events, and lets me flip the bird at the thing I hated, but that's not what I actually wanted".

Regardless, I do want to actually experience and form my own opinions on it, so again, thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

*Snip* Consistently avoiding any meaningful change or lasting consequences.

We've gotten to the point where if certain characters show up or the story takes us back to an older location then it's obvious that even minor characters will be perfectly safe. All to maintain the status quo at any cost...but mysteriously never really throwing a bone to those of us who favour the antagonists and would enjoy seeing at least some of them stick around without being forced to lose everything, proclaim that their ideals were 'always misguided' or just generally end up going in an utterly bizarre direction far removed from what appealed to those who liked the character in the first place.

---

It's gotten to the point that every time Y'shtola (for example) has another potential (but obviously fake out) death scene, my immediate reaction is "THANK GOD, FINALLY!"

I felt more of an emotional impact and a deeper sorrow when Elidibus died at the end of Post-Shadowbringers than absolutely anything involving the Scions across every expansion.

Going to swerve a bit

But is there any dumps or like compilations of the script anywhere, i find it difficult to talk with people about this when i cant find specific quotes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucida3b

Going to swerve a bit

But is there any dumps or like compilations of the script anywhere, i find it difficult to talk with people about this when i cant find specific quotes

---

Garland Tools and FFXIV Gamerescape are what I typically use to find relevant parts of the script, but you actually need to know where and when things were said (as in, which quest, if it was a cutscene or part of overworld chatting, etc.), because neither site has a perfect compilation of the script.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Eh. I can see the problem, sure. But I guess it didn't bother me any more than the 10,000 other missions we do where our mission is to spar with or weaken some type of target without killing them. If I can shoot somebody with a steampunk shotgun at short range and have them just down on their knees and panting in the next cutscene, I've already checked out of expecting realistic wounds regardless of the level of violence.

---

That's not a bad point. But still, how many conscripts and useful idiots did I butcher in Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium and in Ala Mhigo and Doma and Giblet Dark and NOW I'm supposed to believe I can just non-fatally bonk everyone over the head. Now wonder Livia STILL hates me I kind of screwed her SPECIFICALLY. Really, Lucina should be at least a little annoyed that I slaughtered her sister when I, apparently, could have just bonked her on the head.

I guess ultimately the problem is the incredible laziness with which they tried to breeze through this casualty-minimizing invasion. It would not have been hard to include the Conquerer's Chain from the beginning (which would totally justify how the WoL didn't kill anyone), show or at least admit to SOME casualties amongst the actual military contingent we had to fight, highlight an explicit plan to tactically use magic to non-fatally engage the enemy instead of throwing Estinien at them.

He could have been given a linkshell and told to jump and report what he sees so proper less-than-lethal forces could be best deployed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I like the point raised about the Ragnarok. It's such a large ship that it felt weird that so few people ended up boarding it.

It ties in to why I consider some elements of the storytelling in ESO and WoW to be superior. They leave room for the 'everyman' to get on board and go somewhere exotic and fanciful. Whether it be Draenor through the Dark Portal in WoW or Molag Bal's domain of Coldharbour. FFXIV spends far too much time building up the player character and the Scions as these uniquely special individuals who can go anywhere and accomplish anything but it quite simply doesn't feel earned to me at all.

---

The "Chosen One" garbage is a weird problem in a lot of MMOs, even ESO. Why do clods pick that kind of story for a game that, by necessity, has thousands of "protagonists" running around on a server?

FFXI did it a lot better. The player character was just a Level 1 guy that trundled into town and started doing stuff that needed doing. A lot of leveling up and Right Place Right Time later, they're widely known and trusted by rulers to handle some real live problems. Which is generally a more satisfying Hero Arc than "God chose me lolololol" and actually kind of fits into an MMO.

FFXIV, of course, is the worst case of "I AM THE COMPLETELY UNIQUE CHOSEN ONE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THE SERVER" ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

.

---

Oh yeah I omitted a lot of that because exactly what was going on with time travel and what a ruinous idiot Venat seems to be (seriously sundering man was a pointlessly idiotic action that accomplished nothing positive and almost got everyone killed) would have been worth a whole different tl;dr post.

Though I would like ANY explanation for how, in that cutscene as we travel back to The Present, the sky is burning when the Unsundered have APPARENTLY already summoned Zodiark. And if they haven't summoned Zodiark (explaining why the sky is burning), and then VENAT sundered man, when did Zodiark EVER get summoned to be on the Moon forestalling the Final Days? And regardless, how did VENAT in VENAT form have the power to sunder man and CREATE THE MOON and imprison Zodiark just by waving her sword around? And how did she become Hydaelyn AFTER doing that? Why would she even need to become Hydaelyn after that?

Did literally ANYONE proofread the first draft of this clown plot before they just went ahead and produced it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I feel like any time there's 5 or more characters on screen everyone, including the villains, and especially the WOL, collectively loses over 50 points of IQ.

---

Most of them, at this stage, were sitting at about 50 IQ to start with :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Another Mass Effect post. I am almost finished with Mass Effect 3. Only have the Citadel DLC, Priority: Horizon, Priority: Citadel Headquarters, and Priority: Earth left.

---

I hate to rob your joy here, but that is the exact point at which I felt the quality of that story begins to plummet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

FFXI did it a lot better. The player character was just a Level 1 guy that trundled into town and started doing stuff that needed doing. A lot of leveling up and Right Place Right Time later, they're widely known and trusted by rulers to handle some real live problems. Which is generally a more satisfying Hero Arc than "God chose me lolololol" and actually kind of fits into an MMO.

---

Except the WoL was preordained to be the chosen one the moment they divulged the future to Venat. "Right place at the right time" has a different ring to it when the master of puppets has been pulling the strings for 12000 (or however long it was) years in advance, so everything would be as it was. The WoL isn't just A chosen one like the rest of the warriors of light, they're THE chosen one.

SplitbreakFTW's great long list of suspension of disbeliefs a player has to swallow, surmises pretty well why Endwalker is probably where many players felt great disconnect to the story.

I believe I could combine all the times I've rolled my eyes in all prior expansions together, from ARR to ShB, and it still wouldn't have come close to how much I rolled my eyes to the moments of Endwalkers' need for so extreme dose of suspension of disbelief. Or being so jarring I was completely disconnected from it.

Biggest moment of jolt, was probably in the Elpis scenario, realizing everything is predetermined, the literal, "Chosen One", not just some random person who fought against concepts of fate and destinies, but was all along predetermined on a path they had no real choice over. Complete and utter manipulation of entire of the person's fate. There never was any question of whom or what you were, you were always just some special 'Chosen X' from the past soul, your individuality hasn't changed or anything, no real character progression actually, you were the same then as you are now, somehow. All the deaths, calculated to the predestined need of the moment. Makes things rather cold, calculated, and very sinister.

Its probably also why I think Venat could have worked as an Antagonist/Villain, because the more you think of how predetermined and predestined all these horrible events for innocent civilians were, the more cold and calculated they seem, once you know they were all predestined to happen, for the course of nurture the 'Chosen One'. We fought against fate and destiny in all other expansions in some shape or form, just to be used by it, and it being planned out for eons, to arrive at a predetermined destination, to fulfill a predestined function. Literally a path built on the corpses of countless worlds and trillions of lives.

Sometimes, its simply better to leave some things up in the air, I guess Endwalker is a great showcase, once more, why prequels are often a terrible idea, if not fleshed out well enough, against possible plotholes or contrivances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jagick

It's gotten to the point that every time Y'shtola (for example) has another potential (but obviously fake out) death scene, my immediate reaction is "THANK GOD, FINALLY!"

I felt more of an emotional impact and a deeper sorrow when Elidibus died at the end of Post-Shadowbringers than absolutely anything involving the Scions across every expansion.

---

Totally agree. I consider him to be the game's most tragic character. None of the Scions even compare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Totally agree. I consider him to be the game's most tragic character. None of the Scions even compare.

---

Likewise. It was a real shame that the game decided to pull as Sylvanas and try to pretend as if Venat was the real victim all along. Yawn.

I think it was lackluster too! I liked Endwalker overall, laughed a lot and cried a lot, but Elpis was hot garbo!

So was the end of Garlemald, which had been really cool up until the point when Ishikawa realized she had written herself into a situation where main characters were in actual danger and then assumed the form of Fandaniel to literally clap her hands and go: "That's it, nobody dies! It was just a prank!" and then that's it! Totally deflated the entire scenario, especially when she then had the gaul to have Zenos say "I want you to hate me!" motherfukker why didn't you kill Alisaie then? That would have been a nice sendoff, first some stupid girls die, then a character who's name you actually remember shoots himself, then at the end a main character dies. Alphinaud would have been even better. And btw I mean cold blooded murder, no heroic sacrifice at the end for a change. Just a cruel, indifferent takeout.

Also Zenos should have sliced and killed the WoL in the soldier's body before the bodies switched back.

The torture porn of Thavnair part 2 was ridiculous, it's amazing how much of a Shb Emet-Selch Ishikawa turned out to be: The main characters are the real people to her with real meaning, they have to be protected. The side characters? She will inflict as much torment and pain and suffering and excruciating agony on them as possible, children die in front of their parents and vice versa, who cares, she certainly doesn't, they are not even characters to her, just set-dressing. With the main cast, she's worse than Disney who at least had the balls to have Bambi's mom die! It's so bizarre, it's like two different tonal universes that clash extremely ungracefully. Of course Ishikawa is cool, she's not actually evil or anything, I just wanna make a point. I consider it a weakness in her writing.

Elpis was utter trash, they should have never have a quasi-timeloop bullshit narrative like that. It's too much contrivance, Kairos was an absolute joke (it doesn't even make sense, even the writers don't know why the timelines merged!) and to hinge the entire fate of the universe on one zone's worth of storytelling was doomed from the start. Meteion and Hermes fell totally flat for me, Venat worked as a character imo but her reasoning is more muddied than she was at the end of that one cutscene. Hythlodaeus was good.

They had it literally laid out for them, Zodiark was used to rewrite the law of the star, he was defeated by Hydaelyn because enough sacrifices, however with her final blow she tore the star apart, as Zodiark was so intertwined with it as to uphold its very laws, boom, easy! Why do you have to make it so it all was intentional and hey, the souls needed to be reduced in their aetherial density to be better able to interact with this other new fantasy dimension, gimme a break, this is way too far removed from anything sensible.

Ultima Thule was great, including the faux sacrifices (which would have been a great relief if someone had actually died before), I have no idea why people dislike it. It just couldn't salvage the shit that came before.